997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
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The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
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The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
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The difference is minimal, and the disadvantage is more weight and more drag. Most of the GT cars these days are barely into the 500-600 hp range with thousands of lbs of DF. Not to mention the cornering speeds are much higher, the faster you are traveling, the harder to break the tires loose. If you are on a track with a bunch of slow turns where your DF isnt helping much, then maybe there it's an advantage, but on the highspeed tracks you wont be getting much of anything. from it.
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It's simple physics, any computer that inhibits motion by controlling brake and throttle application can only make you slower. You cant add a computer that inhibits and it make you faster unless you couldnt otherwise get around the course, or made that many mistakes. You dont have to be as good as Rohl for the aids to slow you down, even ABS slows you down (if you are using it), but it's better than flat spots on your tires. Look around the country at amatuer DE'rs and racers and see how many of the fastest guys race with electronic aids on. I can promise you wont find many.
Also agree that, on most (all?) street cars, current stability systems make pro drivers slower.
My point (which has not been refuted at all) is simple and perfectly logical:
1. Computers can control MORE actions FASTER than any human-- and can do it simultaneously without losing focus. Easy example is brakes. Cars have four brakes, but one pedal. And there is generally no human input for things like brake bias or TQ split side to side or front/back.
2. In all systems, (all things being equal) the ability to control more variables cannot yield a worse optimal solution versus fewer controls.
3. Technology being what it is (see, e.g, Moore's Law), it is just a matter of time before this situation will yield cars that no human can drive faster with the assist turned off.
4. We are already at #3 with some cars (perhaps the GT-R? I don't know for sure) and some drivers.
You logic that any system that pulls throttle or applies brake cannot make you faster is just false. On throttle, you may have a point, but again my Exhibit A is that TC makes F1 drivers faster because they can safely and aggressively get the most power to the ground under a variety of changing conditions with less worry of oversteer.
On the brakes, you're just dead wrong. A well tuned system can gently intervene to give you a touch of braking on the correct wheel to keep you on line in a situation that would otherwise be "too fast" to make the corner without drifting and correcting (which would slow you down).
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
Last edited by chrisn; Jan 2, 2009 at 05:37 PM.
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The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
I actually agree with all of that. Good real-world advice, despite the hypothetical debate above.
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Agree that it is all about physics.
Also agree that, on most (all?) street cars, current stability systems make pro drivers slower.
My point (which has not been refuted at all) is simple and perfectly logical:
1. Computers can control MORE actions FASTER than any human-- and can do it simultaneously without losing focus. Easy example is brakes. Cars have four brakes, but one pedal. And there is generally no human input for things like brake bias or TQ split side to side or front/back.
2. In all systems, (all things being equal) the ability to control more variables cannot yield a worse optimal solution versus fewer controls.
3. Technology being what it is (see, e.g, Moore's Law), it is just a matter of time before this situation will yield cars that no human can drive faster with the assist turned off.
4. We are already at #3 with some cars (perhaps the GT-R? I don't know for sure) and some drivers.
You logic that any system that pulls throttle or applies brake cannot make you faster is just false. On throttle, you may have a point, but again my Exhibit A is that TC makes F1 drivers faster because they can safely and aggressively get the most power to the ground under a variety of changing conditions with less worry of oversteer.Wrong, a driver will always be potentially faster without aids that cant do anything but "prevent" certain perameters. Maybe more consistent. But a "perfect" pole lap in a car without TC will always be faster than one in which any electronic aids are flashing and cutting power and hitting brakes. That's what makes racing more interesting. To go faster = more risk of mistake. F1 is still faster than it was last year, but still far more exciting because it's about the drivers concentration, not computers preventing mistakes.
On the brakes, you're just dead wrong. A well tuned system can gently intervene to give you a touch of braking on the correct wheel to keep you on line in a situation that would otherwise be "too fast" to make the corner without drifting and correcting (which would slow you down).
How am I wrong in saying that ABS CAN make you slower, it is nothing but a crutch for mistakes. And all you just explained is ABS covering for a mistake. You already entered the corner too fast if you're riding the abs. PERIOD.
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
Also agree that, on most (all?) street cars, current stability systems make pro drivers slower.
My point (which has not been refuted at all) is simple and perfectly logical:
1. Computers can control MORE actions FASTER than any human-- and can do it simultaneously without losing focus. Easy example is brakes. Cars have four brakes, but one pedal. And there is generally no human input for things like brake bias or TQ split side to side or front/back.
2. In all systems, (all things being equal) the ability to control more variables cannot yield a worse optimal solution versus fewer controls.
3. Technology being what it is (see, e.g, Moore's Law), it is just a matter of time before this situation will yield cars that no human can drive faster with the assist turned off.
4. We are already at #3 with some cars (perhaps the GT-R? I don't know for sure) and some drivers.
You logic that any system that pulls throttle or applies brake cannot make you faster is just false. On throttle, you may have a point, but again my Exhibit A is that TC makes F1 drivers faster because they can safely and aggressively get the most power to the ground under a variety of changing conditions with less worry of oversteer.Wrong, a driver will always be potentially faster without aids that cant do anything but "prevent" certain perameters. Maybe more consistent. But a "perfect" pole lap in a car without TC will always be faster than one in which any electronic aids are flashing and cutting power and hitting brakes. That's what makes racing more interesting. To go faster = more risk of mistake. F1 is still faster than it was last year, but still far more exciting because it's about the drivers concentration, not computers preventing mistakes.
On the brakes, you're just dead wrong. A well tuned system can gently intervene to give you a touch of braking on the correct wheel to keep you on line in a situation that would otherwise be "too fast" to make the corner without drifting and correcting (which would slow you down).
How am I wrong in saying that ABS CAN make you slower, it is nothing but a crutch for mistakes. And all you just explained is ABS covering for a mistake. You already entered the corner too fast if you're riding the abs. PERIOD.
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
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The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
I totally agree!!!
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So now it comes down to the GTR having too much computer aided technology and thus is not engaging enough or fast enough for pro drivers? 
Those who think that drivers can drive cars faster without any computer aid are definitely smoking something...
Oh boy.....the extent to which P-car fanbois will go to to defend their pride and joy...
Those who think that drivers can drive cars faster without any computer aid are definitely smoking something...
Oh boy.....the extent to which P-car fanbois will go to to defend their pride and joy...
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The difference is minimal, and the disadvantage is more weight and more drag. Most of the GT cars these days are barely into the 500-600 hp range with thousands of lbs of DF. Not to mention the cornering speeds are much higher, the faster you are traveling, the harder to break the tires loose. If you are on a track with a bunch of slow turns where your DF isnt helping much, then maybe there it's an advantage, but on the highspeed tracks you wont be getting much of anything. from it.
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
The faster the production car, the more R&D required to tune the AWD to that edge.
So therefore, it's a driver's aid that increases complexity, expense, weight and since it's not a safety factor (brakes) but a go-faster factor, is it necessary? And, it isn't allowed in racing, either.
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Go read and watch some reviews and maybe you'll get it, its been said many times, GTR brakes very late and gets on accelerator much earlier out of corners due to smart AWD, it has high gearing so it accelerates like a bat out of cave. All the other supercars with RWD and much more power cant do that due to them loosing traction, they need to modulate their gas pedal, where GTR gets and splits all the traction it needs. Its well balanced car, it was designed on the ring. watch some interviews with the developer of GTR and maybe you'll get it, i clearly see how this car can take corners much better then lighter supercars. Okaaaay maybeeee it ran lil more boost so what
it is slightly heavier lolhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=INJbS0...eature=related
here watch this
Making of GTR
1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqfBZyV8Oc
2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjmwsIW-Sg
3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=66WRQX...eature=related
4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HUORIl...eature=related
5 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SlWuPl...eature=related
Last edited by Vladcanada; Jan 4, 2009 at 08:16 AM.
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I ran a GTR a few months back, close race but I pulled all the same - the higher the speeds the greater the distance I put on it.
Without side by side or speed measurements the butt dyno might tell you otherwise but in the real world most people are finding the TT is faster from a roll.
On the track (or at least most tracks) clearly the GTR is doing what is was designed to do and I give it props for that, hell, even nipping at the heels or matching the Turbo is reason to celebrate for the cost of admission, beating it is fantastic. I love Japanese cars, had a modded Evo IX before the TT and if I did not get crushed lately investment wise I would have one, no doubt about it.
Without side by side or speed measurements the butt dyno might tell you otherwise but in the real world most people are finding the TT is faster from a roll.
On the track (or at least most tracks) clearly the GTR is doing what is was designed to do and I give it props for that, hell, even nipping at the heels or matching the Turbo is reason to celebrate for the cost of admission, beating it is fantastic. I love Japanese cars, had a modded Evo IX before the TT and if I did not get crushed lately investment wise I would have one, no doubt about it.
Terrence not to take anything away from you because you obviously enjoy cars. But if a stock GTR cannot beat me on sprints in a my stock Turbo(6 speed) and with 30-120mph runs it couldn't beat me(ran 5 times) then how on earth could you say that the GTR is faster than a StageIII Turbo which would lay waste to me on the roads?
Remeber there is a difference between fast and quick. I know you have had both but unless you got a Japanese Demo car I would be hard pressed to say it was faster.
I would not speak unless I have driven and raced one and I have.
Glad you are enjoying it.
Remeber there is a difference between fast and quick. I know you have had both but unless you got a Japanese Demo car
I would be hard pressed to say it was faster. I would not speak unless I have driven and raced one and I have.
Glad you are enjoying it.
Last edited by gmoney; Jan 4, 2009 at 09:06 AM.
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Go read and watch some reviews and maybe you'll get it, its been said many times, GTR brakes very late and gets on accelerator much earlier out of corners due to smart AWD, it has high gearing so it accelerates like a bat out of cave. All the other supercars with RWD and much more power cant do that due to them loosing traction, they need to modulate their gas pedal, where GTR gets and splits all the traction it needs. Its well balanced car, it was designed on the ring. watch some interviews with the developer of GTR and maybe you'll get it, i clearly see how this car can take corners much better then lighter supercars. Okaaaay maybeeee it ran lil more boost so what it is slightly heavier lol
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=INJbS0...eature=related
here watch this
Making of GTR
1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqfBZyV8Oc
2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjmwsIW-Sg
3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=66WRQX...eature=related
4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HUORIl...eature=related
5 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SlWuPl...eature=related
it is slightly heavier lolhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=INJbS0...eature=related
here watch this
Making of GTR
1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HPqfBZyV8Oc
2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DsjmwsIW-Sg
3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=66WRQX...eature=related
4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HUORIl...eature=related
5 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SlWuPl...eature=related
You can get on the power earlier but it does lack power and simply can not do a 7:29 lap in production form. It has very low gearing which is great for a slow stop start type of track, too bad the Nurburgring is a long fast track.
All these designed in the Ring is utter BS. BTW manufacturers are supposed to run a stock production version and not some boosted up ringer.
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And watch the Driver Republic review, not so manufacturer PR. It is a heavy car so is not suited to the long Nurburgring track, it wears out its tyres and brakes very quickly. Its weight and 4WD system also makes it understeery.
You can get on the power earlier but it does lack power and simply can not do a 7:29 lap in production form. It has very low gearing which is great for a slow stop start type of track, too bad the Nurburgring is a long fast track.
All these designed in the Ring is utter BS. BTW manufacturers are supposed to run a stock production version and not some boosted up ringer.
You can get on the power earlier but it does lack power and simply can not do a 7:29 lap in production form. It has very low gearing which is great for a slow stop start type of track, too bad the Nurburgring is a long fast track.
All these designed in the Ring is utter BS. BTW manufacturers are supposed to run a stock production version and not some boosted up ringer.
there's no proof that they cheated, so it did run 7:29 like it or not, but only professional F1 driver could do that ( Suzuki guy) but its still pretty amazing. every 4wd system is understeery from factory so its safer that way for average joe.
This can go forever, I do believe it went 7:29 but only very few people can duplicate it.
its still an amazing piece of machinery for the money.
Oh and how is it not suited for Nurburgring if they developed GT-R ON IT?
Last edited by Vladcanada; Jan 4, 2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Electronics can make pro-drivers quicker. Try googling 'torque vectoring' if you are interested, it is fitted to many World Rally Cars as it does improve speed, even in the hands of the World Rally Champions.