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What porsche has done for the turbo is what the OP is trying to say they should do for the whole line I think. I agree 100% with the OP. But I don't know why people are being stupid with the comments. Also I don't know why people have a 911 that isn't a turbo,GT3, etc as a weekend toy. This is a every day sports car and that is what they tout from its inception. Why are you people using it as a weekend toy unless it's a GT3, GT2, or turbo? But as stated the turbo from a performance point of view kills everything over 200k-500k pretty much. What the OP is saying is that the 911 should do the same from 100-200k I think. And I agree that it should do that. The dollar to value for these cars is absurd. High dollar and not a justifiable value. But bottom line is King. As long as everyone pays for it (me included) they will keep doing it. I like porsche because of the DD practicality and use it as its intended. The rest of the people who use it as a weekend toy are smoking something. You missed the point of the car and are over paying for nothing. Your weekend toy if its a porsche should be a turbo, GT3 RS, or CGT if your lucky.
For me driving my 991 C2S as a daily driver isn't too practical for many reasons for my lifestyle.
That being said, it's a perfect non-work car for me. I don't see the need to have a GT3 or Turbo in place of it. I'm not headed to the track anyway, so I'll stick with my petty C2S. Why spend an extra 50-80K when you'll never need the increased performance for street driving? Unless I'm afraid of getting beat drag racing from a stop light. If I'm going to get pulled over, I'd rather have it happen enjoying the ride on a freeway flying 100+mph, than for some dumb *** that wants to drag race off a stop light.
If your goal is stoplight drag racing, then maybe you shouldn't be trolling a Porsche forum.
The initial write up may come across too drag racing focus. My point is there are too many variations of a model ( 11 for 911). Obviously, people want more hp and performance, so Porsche offers the GT3, RS, Turbo, Turbo S and the $18K PowerKit. It just feels like they try to 'nickel and dime' us for every bit of performance.
If we look at other brands ( Lamborghini, Ferrari , BMW M, AMG - I know some are exotic cars), they don't have 8 different versions of the 458 Ferrari or M5 or E63.
Porsche is a premium brand and we don't want to feel like we are driving a Chevy or Ford ( i do like both brands) offering 16 different variations of the same car. If I am going to buy a Camaro sport car, I want to buy the Z28 or ZL1 and not the 6 cylinder entry level Camaro.
If we are paying premium price for the car, Porsche should offer premium package as a base. One simple question. How many of us will say 'NO' if all 991s come standard with the GT3 engine today? It is not about how fast is my 1/4 mile timing. It is more about, we deserve top performance from our P car.
Disclaimer: I don't drag race on the street and rarely drive above the speed limit. I don't want a Hellcat and refuse to drive a GTR.
I think I get most of what the OP is saying; I'm 45 and growing up seeing a 911 was special and rare compared to the boats of the 70s and 80s. In this day and age, the boats are not there so much anymore (except replaced by SUVs), so the comparative landscape has changed. Back then, when our minds were being formed, regular car speedos went to 85 and had the Cd of a refrigerator. Today most every car is aerodynamic and can safely cruise over 85mph. So everyone caught up and the difference is not as apparent. Here in NYC most everyone has a >$50k car and at that pricepoint you can get a lot of quality these days, the delta is not as apparent and also measured with a glitzometer. On top of which the Porsches per capita has exponentially increased. We live in a much more brand aware, consumer based society, as opposed to interest based. I would love to give fellow owners the special wave, but I don't "know" these people; owning something today is different than having an interest in what it was developed for. P How many housewives or other "unqualified" owners are driving Porsches today? In the 80s we mocked the yuppies and dentists, today we cannot categorize so much. As the hotel thread shows, it's literally everyone and their mother in 918s no less! In my youth I lamented that the finer things in life were only for the rich; I thought that people should "qualify" to buy a sports car based on interest and driving talent, as opposed to its accessibility. An enthusiast rating that is done after the eye exam at the DMV. Seems the point is more based on our society and it's relevance to what "we" feel Porsches are, what they were, and how they should be driven. They have knit and cast a wide net and when you troll there's collateral . . . To the OPs point should there be entry level grades, or should the used market have done it? Should there be such a thing as the Cayenne or Panamera, or should Audi have taken care of that? I miss the sports/GT orientation, imagine if they had their 80s/90s lineup today; with 944s, 928s and a limited run of a modern interpretation of the 356 today?
I guess but when I grew up in the 70s Porsches weren't the fastest... I built corvettes, Cameros, and mustangs that would blow away even the early turbo Porsches.. But that is never what a Porsche was about.. It was about handling, style and an attitude...
Yeah I feel similarly about a lot of people buying Porsches today that have no business with one, but I think the mystery of a porsche is far from over.. Just last week at a gas station I had a beautiful woman walk up to me and say she couldn't stop staring at my beautiful porsche.. I've had some nice cars, but I've never had so many unsolicited comments and conversations with any other car I've owned in my life...the same occurs in the parking lot at work and almost anywhere and I live in a place with no shortage of true exotics...
So in my observation is that the the car feels special.. Compare to a Harley which is a brand that was once a bad *** legend and now is a joke since they are more associated with-accountants and lawyers..(wild hogs come to mind)
I guess but when I grew up in the 70s Porsches weren't the fastest... I built corvettes, Cameros, and mustangs that would blow away even the early turbo Porsches.. But that is never what a Porsche was about.. It was about handling, style and an attitude... Yeah I feel similarly about a lot of people buying Porsches today that have no business with one, but I think the mystery of a porsche is far from over.. Just last week at a gas station I had a beautiful woman walk up to me and say she couldn't stop staring at my beautiful porsche.. I've had some nice cars, but I've never had so many unsolicited comments and conversations with any other car I've owned in my life...the same occurs in the parking lot at work and almost anywhere and I live in a place with no shortage of true exotics... So in my observation is that the the car feels special.. Compare to a Harley which is a brand that was once a bad *** legend and now is a joke since they are more associated with-accountants and lawyers..(wild hogs come to mind) That said I could do without pannys and SUVs
Too bad she didn't say she couldn't stop looking at you too! Ha ha.
I think a lot of true sports car enthusiasts, would rather not see Porsche making SUV's and sedans. But the reality is, they are part of a bigger company as we all know. Making money and gaining market share trumps purity many times. They see the Porsche brand as a little more broad based than more niche companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini.
For me driving my 991 C2S as a daily driver isn't too practical for many reasons for my lifestyle.
That being said, it's a perfect non-work car for me. I don't see the need to have a GT3 or Turbo in place of it. I'm not headed to the track anyway, so I'll stick with my petty C2S. Why spend an extra 50-80K when you'll never need the increased performance for street driving? Unless I'm afraid of getting beat drag racing from a stop light. If I'm going to get pulled over, I'd rather have it happen enjoying the ride on a freeway flying 100+mph, than for some dumb *** that wants to drag race off a stop light.
Meh with that mentality you might as well have just bought a boxster or cayman, and saved your self more money. My uncle has a C4S I drove recently, and to be honest, the new boxster S or even GTS is pretty much just as usable as that C4S. Also without trying them back to back I could barely tell a difference.
I still stick with the 911 up until the GT3 belongs as a DD. If someone can't use it as a DD maybe because they use a truck for work or something like that, a boxster or cayman are pretty much just as good. There is only the stupid stigma that it is a poor mans porsche which is utter and complete nonsense. And this follows true with why the porsche engineers built all these cars in the first place. They all serve a purpose and a need.
Too bad she didn't say she couldn't stop looking at you too! Ha ha.
I think a lot of true sports car enthusiasts, would rather not see Porsche making SUV's and sedans. But the reality is, they are part of a bigger company as we all know. Making money and gaining market share trumps purity many times. They see the Porsche brand as a little more broad based than more niche companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I would 100% support porsche ripping off everyone who buys a panny or a cayenne, if and only if, the huge profit margins they get from those 2 lines, allow the 911, boxster, and cayman, to be performance bargains. Like the turbo is, like the GT3 is.
Meh with that mentality you might as well have just bought a boxster or cayman, and saved your self more money. My uncle has a C4S I drove recently, and to be honest, the new boxster S or even GTS is pretty much just as usable as that C4S. Also without trying them back to back I could barely tell a difference. I still stick with the 911 up until the GT3 belongs as a DD. If someone can't use it as a DD maybe because they use a truck for work or something like that, a boxster or cayman are pretty much just as good. There is only the stupid stigma that it is a poor mans porsche which is utter and complete nonsense. And this follows true with why the porsche engineers built all these cars in the first place. They all serve a purpose and a need.
So now you're going to tell me which car to buy?
I don't like the Boxster or the Cayman, but do like the 991. Just because I don't get or even want the Turbo or GT3, who cares? It's my car and money.
Usable? Anything with four or even two wheels is usable isn't it?
If you're such a baller, pick up a 918 and let's talk then.
I don't like the Boxster or the Cayman, but do like the 991. Just because I don't get or even want the Turbo or GT3, who cares? It's my car and money.
Usable? Anything with four or even two wheels is usable isn't it?
If you're such a baller, pick up a 918 and let's talk then.
I'm not telling you anything. You just said you didn't want the GT3 or turbo because the performance is too much for the street, and why spend the extra money. I said using that logic, then a boxster or cayman would be even better for a street car as far as usable performance and value.
And again you said for you the 911 isn't usable as a DD, so I'm not sure where your going with rest of your post.
Regardless of how you use the car, the engineers made it for a reason and to serve a need. That isn't really an opinion. The 911 was made to be the best DD sports car out there, and it is. But it doesn't really matter if you use it that way or not.
I'm not telling you anything. You just said you didn't want the GT3 or turbo because the performance is too much for the street, and why spend the extra money. I said using that logic, then a boxster or cayman would be even better for a street car as far as usable performance and value. And again you said for you the 911 isn't usable as a DD, so I'm not sure where your going with rest of your post. Regardless of how you use the car, the engineers made it for a reason and to serve a need. That isn't really an opinion. The 911 was made to be the best DD sports car out there, and it is. But it doesn't really matter if you use it that way or not. Enjoy the car.
I am and will continue to enjoy it. No regrets at all. That's all that really matters in the end right?
At this point I like the rear engine and having back seats. The mid engines were never a consideration, plus the 911 is a far better looking car. I can't stand the back ends on the Cayman/Boxster.
I can always tell when folks have bought the wrong kind of car and for the wrong reasons.. I've lost the desire anymore to describe the distinctions on a carrea vs other cars...
So just go buy a corvette or whatever and be happy...
Best comparison I can think of is someone comparing a Monet to a Thomas Kincaid painting... Describing the Monet as kinda blurry and shouldn't be..
Thank you. My sentiments exactly. I would add only that, like art, satisfaction and passion for an automobile is a personal experience. There always will be other better or worse automobiles for various reasons, but a driver will always stay with their choice of vehicle as long as it fully communicates with their wants.
I think I get most of what the OP is saying; I'm 45 and growing up seeing a 911 was special and rare compared to the boats of the 70s and 80s.
In this day and age, the boats are not there so much anymore (except replaced by SUVs), so the comparative landscape has changed.
Back then, when our minds were being formed, regular car speedos went to 85 and had the Cd of a refrigerator.
Today most every car is aerodynamic and can safely cruise over 85mph.
So everyone caught up and the difference is not as apparent.
Here in NYC most everyone has a >$50k car and at that pricepoint you can get a lot of quality these days, the delta is not as apparent and also measured with a glitzometer.
On top of which the Porsches per capita has exponentially increased. We live in a much more brand aware, consumer based society, as opposed to interest based.
I would love to give fellow owners the special wave, but I don't "know" these people; owning something today is different than having an interest in what it was developed for. P
How many housewives or other "unqualified" owners are driving Porsches today? In the 80s we mocked the yuppies and dentists, today we cannot categorize so much. As the hotel thread shows, it's literally everyone and their mother in 918s no less!
In my youth I lamented that the finer things in life were only for the rich; I thought that people should "qualify" to buy a sports car based on interest and driving talent, as opposed to its accessibility. An enthusiast rating that is done after the eye exam at the DMV.
Seems the point is more based on our society and it's relevance to what "we" feel Porsches are, what they were, and how they should be driven.
They have knit and cast a wide net and when you troll there's collateral . . .
To the OPs point should there be entry level grades, or should the used market have done it?
Should there be such a thing as the Cayenne or Panamera, or should Audi have taken care of that?
I miss the sports/GT orientation, imagine if they had their 80s/90s lineup today; with 944s, 928s and a limited run of a modern interpretation of the 356 today?
I am glad there are others who shared my viewpoints. Again, I want to stress it is not about the 1/4 mile drag race. It is the overall package.
Here are 2 examples:
- Porsche introduced the Cayman GTS with similar hp as the 911 base but intentionally lockdown the performance so the 911 base owners can feel better.
- back in the 90s, there was no base model. You get your Carrera, and it is 'the' Carrera. There is no S or GTS. ( I think they may have a RS for track use).
I guess Porsche can continue to do this because we continue to pay for what they want ( me included).
I respect the fact that people feel special driving their P-car and I am one of them. That's why i don't drive American or Japanese sport cars ( personal preference). Last thing I want to see is the P-car turning into driving an Audi ( with the A4, 5, 6, 7, S4, 5, 6, 7 or RS5, RS6, RS7).
It is special when it offers unique performance and not 'dime a dozen' with 30 variations ( going from Boxster, Cayman, to 911)
Thread closed. As I stated at the very beginning, this is not going to be a popular discussion topic.
- back in the 90s, there was no base model. You get your Carrera, and it is 'the' Carrera. There is no S or GTS. ( I think they may have a RS for track use).
Not true. Both the 964 and 993 came in C2, C2S, C4, C4S, TT and TTS, as well as the cab variants, plus slantnoses, speedsters etc.
"Too many" variants is the Porsche way. Even the 356 by the middle of it's cycle (B series) started to have 3 motor types in both cab and coupe form, plus roadsters and other special models.
"Down-market" Porsche sports cars have been around since at least 1965 when the 912 was released. Other than the turbos, in each generation since the original 911, there were faster straight-line cars for the money, and the pro reviews still preferred the 911 in many cases because of the handling and overall chassis feel.
Having said all that, I do agree that the competition has improved the overall performance gap in the past couple years. When the 991S first came out, there was no new 'Vette, M4, F-type, etc. Personally, I think the 991S is a superior car than each of those, even not considering the $$/
I can't stand the back ends on the Cayman/Boxster.
Finally something we agree on...sort of. I don't really like the rear view of either 981 Cayman or Boxster, but I like the Boxster's a little better. The GTS is an improvement too from a rear view. The wing on the 981 is cheap to me and I don't like the tail lights on any of them. And even though bumperettes are a non-European thing, I like them. To me a Porsche without bumperettes doesn't look like a Porsche (too many decades of seeing Porsches with bumperettes I guess). The 981 with the license plate holder with the built in ultra mini bumperette ridges looks and is super cheap.
Well let's see ... my 991-CS cost about the same as a GT3. The car is an awesome performer and, no, I don't use it as a DD; mostly because I don't have to. And only using it when I feel like it helps to keep that "new car" feeling going a lot longer.
As far as being bullied at a stoplight by a car with excessive HP: I simply go home and get my kid brother's 700+ RWHP Terminator. That car is one FAST brick. And yes, I do know how to drive it; there are no automatics in my family.
09-01-2014, 11:13 AM
