996 Turbo / GT2Turbo discussion on previous model 2000-2004 Porsche 911 Twin Turbo and 911 GT2. Sponsored By Vivid Racing
Welcome to 6SpeedOnline.com!
Welcome to 6SpeedOnline.com.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join 6SpeedOnline.com today!
When was the last time there was an true "apples to apples" comparison....people race different cars, different turbos, different tunes, different overall mods. I don't see how pump + 50/50 WI disqualifies or makes a comparison unfair. Someone who spends $$$ on ICs, larger intake tracks, weight reductions, etc...and someone else spends $ on a WI kit... go ahead and compare each cars acceleration speeds... whats the big deal?!
Look at my signature. See the difference between 60-130 runs using pump, 100 octane and C16? Now, if I was running water/meth (which I think is awesome by the way)...I could have ran the same boost that I did on C16.
That's the big deal.
This ad is not displayed to registered and logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on 6SpeedOnline!
Look at my signature. See the difference between 60-130 runs using pump, 100 octane and C16? Now, if I was running water/meth (which I think is awesome by the way)...I could have ran the same boost that I did on C16.
That's the big deal.
Whats stopping you?
My point is that you can always find a reason for a comparison to be "unfair" or "inaccurate"...
Thanks for sharing this article...interesting test.
But with same boost and same timing... isn't it expected that the dyno numbers would be very similar? I would think race gas is going to allow you to run more timing and/or more boost than pump + meth mix....
That's the point. People mistakenly assume that you can run more boost/timing with race gas than with pump+meth, but this article shows you can run them at the same levels and make the same power.
Before I read it, I expected the race gas runs to be higher. But I was wrong.
Basically, this article is proof positive how awesome pump+meth really is. You don't need race gas at all.
Some guys take it even further. The HPF M3 guys run their M3's on race fuel+ water/meth. Talk about an advantage!
When was the last time there was an true "apples to apples" comparison....people race different cars, different turbos, different tunes, different overall mods. I don't see how pump + 50/50 WI disqualifies or makes a comparison unfair. Someone who spends $$$ on ICs, larger intake tracks, weight reductions, etc...and someone else spends $ on a WI kit... go ahead and compare each cars acceleration speeds... whats the big deal?!
the big deal is that you cannot say with certainty that your turbos are better or spool faster if you have different conditions. If it isn't apples to apples, then it is just one car is faster than another for multiple conditions. And you are correct, it is never apples to apples. However, if everyone ran a pump file, then you would see who's kits work best under those conditions.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - Concord Impresario Zenith mvmnt for sale and willing to trade for items listed in posting
There was no water/meth option for our cars back them. EPL was the first.
Quote:
My point is that you can always find a reason for a comparison to be "unfair" or "inaccurate"...
Oh well....apparently its irrelevant!
But to most people (everyone other than you, it seems), the type of fuel you are running is a pretty big deal. That's why there is such a thing as "pump gas only" 1/4 mile drag days, and "pump gas only" 1/4 mile world records (a Viper holds that one), etc..
We aren't talking about menial things like ICs or intakes. We are talking about the amount of boost and timing you can run on a performance engine. This makes a HUGE difference.
That's the point. People mistakenly assume that you can run more boost/timing with race gas than with pump+meth, but this article shows you can run them at the same levels and make the same power.
Before I read it, I expected the race gas runs to be higher. But I was wrong.
Basically, this article is proof positive how awesome pump+meth really is. You don't need race gas at all.
Some guys take it even further. The HPF M3 guys run their M3's on race fuel+ water/meth. Talk about an advantage!
I agree with the proof of benefits of WI.
But the test was only done at one boost level....so who knows if the race gas set up would make more power at say 15psi (as apposed to the 11psi test) then pump+meth mix.
My car made more power on race + water/meth then it did on pump + water/meth ....wait, does this mean I can still be in the race gas comparison category for those runs?!
There was no water/meth option for our cars back them. EPL was the first.
how about for the vette?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
We aren't talking about menial things like ICs or intakes. We are talking about the amount of boost and timing you can run on a performance engine. This makes a HUGE difference.
So if a WI car runs 1.2bar on pump and a non-WI car runs 1.2bar on pump its unfair? Sorry....I'm beating a dead horse!
I thought about it before I posted, And I repeat: I am certain that Scotts old car would have beaten your brothers car in a roll on (as reflected by the 60-130 #s).
OK, let me think about it some more....hmmm...yep....hmmm....yep: Same conclusion, Scotts old car would win. I will think about it all day and my view won't change (although doing so might allow me to steal your official 6 speed bench racing trophy.
__________________
2002 Porsche GT2 with GT 30's Tuned by Protomotive. 60-130 Street Tire Champion Tx2K8 and Tx2K9.
2004 BMW Individual M3: Built motor, Vortech T trim. 8.59 60-130
2009 Mercedes E350
2004 Porsche Cayenne TT.
But the test was only done at one boost level....so who knows if the race gas set up would make more power at say 15psi (as apposed to the 11psi test) then pump+meth mix.
My car made more power on race + water/meth then it did on pump + water/meth ....wait, does this mean I can still be in the race gas comparison category for those runs?!
or it water/meth could make more. But for now that is all supposition. If you presume a regular curve, then they might both make equal power. In fact I'd bet that with WI you might be better at higher boost pressures due to the higher heat involved
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - Concord Impresario Zenith mvmnt for sale and willing to trade for items listed in posting
But the test was only done at one boost level....so who knows if the race gas set up would make more power at say 15psi (as apposed to the 11psi test) then pump+meth mix.
The car was tuned with water/meth by EPL, correct? Well...knowing that, I guarantee the timing was advanced...thus giving it more power regardless of the boost level.
Quote:
My car made more power on race + water/meth then it did on pump + water/meth ....wait, does this mean I can still be in the race gas comparison category for those runs?!
You don't get it. There is no "category". I don't even list the fuel type on the 60-130 list. You ran what you run. Period. But when you try and directly compare a car running water/meth or race gas to a car running pump gas only, you just aren't going to be taken seriously by anyone that knows that they are talking about.
Yes, they have it for the 'Vette. But I'm not running enough boost or timing to need it at this point. If I go with a bigger blower down the road, then I will definitely get water/meth.
Quote:
So if a WI car runs 1.2bar on pump and a non-WI car runs 1.2bar on pump its unfair? Sorry....I'm beating a dead horse!
If the timing is different between the two cars, than no, the two can not be accurately compared.
Also, water/meth cools the intake charge...so even if timing and boost are the same, the water/meth car will still make more power since intake charge is cooler. It's like running one car in 70 degree weather, compared to another running in 90 degree weather.
The car was tuned with water/meth by EPL, correct? Well...knowing that, I guarantee the timing was advanced...thus giving it more power regardless of the boost level.
no man....I was referring to the Muscle Mustang article test you posted... not EPL or the car in the OP...article specifically stated same boost and same timing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
You don't get it. There is no "category". I don't even list the fuel type on the 60-130 list. You ran what you run. Period. But when you try and directly compare a car running water/meth or race gas to a car running pump gas only, you just aren't going to be taken seriously by anyone that knows that they are talking about. Sorry.
Dude....I get it...I don't think you completely get my point...but I give up...
And I was joking with the "category" comment b/c you mentioned it in a previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divexxtreme
One of the 3 cars in the mix was running meth injection, which puts it in the exact same category as a race gas car.
If the timing is different between the two cars, than no, the two can not be accurately compared.
Also, water/meth cools the intake charge...so even if timing and boost are the same, the water/meth car will still make more power since intake charge is cooler. It's like running one car in 70 degree weather, compared to another running in 90 degree weather.
But different tuners run different timing...people compare those...
And some cars have larger ICs that lower IATs....people compare those...
But different tuners run different timing...people compare those...
And some cars have larger ICs that lower IATs....people compare those...
just face it your running a race file so what. nothing wrong with that at all. I'd rather run a WI race file than a C16 race file. WI burns cleaner better for the environment, keeps things cooler. To many benefits over C16.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. - Concord Impresario Zenith mvmnt for sale and willing to trade for items listed in posting
But different tuners run different timing...people compare those...
And some cars have larger ICs that lower IATs....people compare those...
I think we are on two different wavelengths here, which is fine.
Here's an idea, why don't you completely remove the water/meth setup from your car, and then retune it for 93 pump only...and then redyno. After you see your new dyno numbers, let me know if you think it's the same as comparing ICs....
....wait, does this mean I can still be in the race gas comparison category for those runs?! 
Linear Mode
