PTFE additive to oil

[jrho]

hi, have a '03 x50 tip, 54K... i've been using a very concentrated PTFE oil additive to my cars after it breaks in and it decreases friction significantly in the motor.... is there any particular contraindications to adding this to a turbo motor, given that the oil circulates in the turbo mechanism as well? the PTFE basically circulates and coats the moving parts and cylinder walls...it's about a 6oz additive that i've used on most of my cars in the last 10+ years with good result.... i change oil every 5K , M1, weekend driver... james R so calif

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[Joe Weinstein]

Any benefit you feel is the placebo effect. We all know how much smoother
a car runs after it's just been waxed and the tire pressures checked, even if
they didn't need changing. If teflon were a reliable oil additive, you couldn't
stop the major oil companies from putting it in their oil. Dupont is the primary
supplier of teflon, and did exhaustive testing showing no benefit in motor oil
applications, but when they tried to stop selling it to third parties for that purpose
they were sued on the basis that no harm was found from it. When used as a
bonded coating it has friction benefits, but not as a free floating additive where
it really adheres to nothing permanently, and at cold temperatures can actually
clog small pores in oil filters. The party trick involved in 'PTFE treatments' is
usually the matrix, the oil in which it is delivered. If this oil is significantly thinner
than the motor oil you're running, it's like paint thinner; a little goes a long way
to lowering your overall oil viscosity which (as long as you're not challenging
your motor) will lower your fluid frictional losses (viscosity is fluid friction).
Summary: don't use it.
Joe

[Joe Weinstein]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

PTFE is a white solid at room temperature. Unless that 'highly concentrated oil additive'
looks like 'Wite-Out', it's probably mostly mineral oil.

From the web:

"PTFE is a solid which is added to engine oil and coats the moving parts of the engine.

However, such solids seem even more inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.

This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau)."

[ard]

www.bobistheoilguy.com (BITOG)

If there is something worth knowing about oil, they'll have a thread on it....

(but listen to Joe too...)

A

[jrho]

yeah, thanks for all the replies.... this particular product is a milky white liquid with VERY fine PTFE, no visible/feelable particulate... you warm up the engine hot then pour it in....it's to bond to cylinder walls,etc/surface... they have people claiming driving w/o eng oil after this treatment, by accident but....
also, used in heavy diesel trucks/etc. for improved compression and gas/mpg....
my expierence that is of any objective value was...in a '91 accord, it used to take about 4 minutes for water temp to come up to normal op temp on the gauge but after i treated the engine with this, it would take 6+minutes to come up to temp.... i.e. less friction, less heat generated on initial start.... ?!?
i just wanted to see if the our turbo motor has any other unique aspect where use of this would be detrimental....? esp in the turbo cooling aspect of the engine oil....

i know what you mean....slick 50 had about 5% of the PTFE this product has and in that product, moft of the PTFE was sitting stuck to the bottom of the oil can..... this product, the PTFE is suspended in the carrier oil with a consistency of yogurt drink...

i think it's a good product in my experience with other non-turbo cars but then again, there's alot of this type of products out there that are total bogus so....

james R

[Joe Weinstein]

I wish you luck and success, for sure. Can you tell us what brand your chosen
product is? There is a chance it can benefit, but I remain concerned that with the
environmental pressures on leading oil manufacturers to reduce pollution and
increase gas mileage, which lead them to reduce the zinc in their oils, even trading
off some lubricity in order to prevent damage to catalytic converters, while retaining
the zinc (purposely added) in oils that won't affect cats, oil companies would have
been forced long ago to be first-developers, first-testers, and first-adopters of teflon
additives if it truly helped their cause.

[ard]

OP

This is just such utter nonsense.

You are coming here asking of this stuff, which is a scam is "good for the turbos, since **I** know it is good for the non-turbo motors".

Maybe it clogged up the thermostat, holding it slightly open, in you 91 accord and that is why it took longer to warm up?

Look it is really very, very easy to determine if this stuff reduces wear. Nobody does these tests becuase (a) the company this sells it lies, (b) people that know will not risk their motors.

Why not ask the company where you buy it? I can almost guarantee they will say it is PERFECT for turbos, but maybe add twice as much for such a high end application., (ie sucker with money)

[0396]

Originally Posted by jrho

hi, have a '03 x50 tip, 54K...
i've been using a very concentrated PTFE oil additive to my cars after it breaks in and it decreases friction significantly in the motor....
is there any particular contraindications to adding this to a turbo motor, given that the oil circulates in the turbo mechanism as well?
the PTFE basically circulates and coats the moving parts and cylinder walls...it's about a 6oz additive that i've used on most of my cars in the last 10+ years with good result....
i change oil every 5K , M1, weekend driver...

james R
so calif

When these types of additives came out- I WAS very young.
Like you I added three cans of this 'concentrated' teflon / PTFE to my 3.0 at the time. Over time, I spun a bearing and while taking my motor apart. I noticed that there were 'strands' of 'white' stufffff...I GUESS you can see my expression.. I've never touch that snake oil stuff again. Coats the insides.. it's more like clogs the inside of your motor.
My .02 cents

[jrho]

interesting replies and all well taken...

yeah, i agree, if it's such an amazing stuff, it should have been probably more prevalent (incidence x duration ) in the automotive arena...

probably won't put it in my tt x50...have a few bottles still of this...it's from taylor enterprises in san bern, ca, who was distributing it to alot of commercial diesel applications....

for all i know, it could have been placebo effect but it sure felt like the old motors were more smooth and quiet after application...

they say that most of the engine 'damage' occurs in the 1st 1 minute of the engine start up due to no oil in the circuit.... that a well coated less frictioned parts/cylinder walls would have less wear... so they claim....

any other snake oils for cars out there? i hear the japanese auto industry has some similar product that is amazing...forgot the name but....

james R
M1 5-50 for me for now....