Thinking of building your motor? New EVOMS Head Studs...

[m42racer]

I cannot speak to all the reasons why some of these engines have failed. I was not involved in any of them. But it seems some here that were involved did not get involved either. It seems that the stud has gotten all of the blame. One post here stated some studs were different from one another. If this was the case, did you inspect these before installing them? Something as critical as a head Stud should always be inspected by the engine builder. This is something done by any good builder. Any part installed and or sold should always be tested and not taken for granted. Yes, I agree there are many reasons why Head gaskets fail. If it can be directed towards the head stud, typically it can be found upon installation. Studs should be installed so that they can turn under tightening and should always be tightened with angle and not a torque. This takes the friction out of the equation. But most of the time it is because of other reasons. You need to look at what is going on when the studs are stretched. Everything. My advice is to look at everything and not just think its the studs. The OEM studs may be OK if everything else is OK. Remember the other Porsche 4V water cooled Turbo engines of the 80's. These engines are a simplified version of those engines, and they used to make 800 HP in qualification spec with lots of boost. They were smaller displacement so the Cylinder pressures were higher verses bore size. They had 10.00mm studs, and nothing special I'm told. Many other engines have or make well over 1000HP and either use ARP studs or some other type and do not have issues with Head gaskets as a fault. Experience gives some a leg up over those with little or none. This goes for many things in life and its not any different in engine building. Head Studs are are an important part of any engine, but today if you know your stuff, should not be an issue. Apply good engineering, good product and the problem will no be an issue. It would not be fair of me to post here what to do to make these engines last. 3 companies offer this proven solution and to state what it is so that those other companies that do not know or have failed to find a solution could find out here for free, is not right. This is about business and the investment should be protected.

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[joetwint]

Originally Posted by m42racer

I cannot speak to all the reasons why some of these engines have failed. I was not involved in any of them. But it seems some here that were involved did not get involved either. It seems that the stud has gotten all of the blame. One post here stated some studs were different from one another. If this was the case, did you inspect these before installing them? Something as critical as a head Stud should always be inspected by the engine builder. This is something done by any good builder. Any part installed and or sold should always be tested and not taken for granted.

Yes, I agree there are many reasons why Head gaskets fail. If it can be directed towards the head stud, typically it can be found upon installation. Studs should be installed so that they can turn under tightening and should always be tightened with angle and not a torque. This takes the friction out of the equation. But most of the time it is because of other reasons. You need to look at what is going on when the studs are stretched. Everything. My advice is to look at everything and not just think its the studs.

The OEM studs may be OK if everything else is OK. Remember the other Porsche 4V water cooled Turbo engines of the 80's. These engines are a simplified version of those engines, and they used to make 800 HP in qualification spec with lots of boost. They were smaller displacement so the Cylinder pressures were higher verses bore size. They had 10.00mm studs, and nothing special I'm told. Many other engines have or make well over 1000HP and either use ARP studs or some other type and do not have issues with Head gaskets as a fault. Experience gives some a leg up over those with little or none. This goes for many things in life and its not any different in engine building.

Head Studs are are an important part of any engine, but today if you know your stuff, should not be an issue. Apply good engineering, good product and the problem will no be an issue.

It would not be fair of me to post here what to do to make these engines last. 3 companies offer this proven solution and to state what it is so that those other companies that do not know or have failed to find a solution could find out here for free, is not right. This is about business and the investment should be protected.

Now you are talking in circles with nothing to back up your claims.You can talk sh*t all you want but fact is the stock studs suck,period......and so do the ARP.......who the hell wants to pull their motor after every track day.I can bet you that if you go and look at a new 997 turbo (stock) after 5000 miles the heads are sweating on the ends and there is a spray of oil near the timing chain housings .Hell every turbocharged Porsche flat six ever made has oil sweating problems.except for one that i know of.........drumroll.....that's right mine...well BBB'S too.Want to know how I know?Because Evoms took it apart after a thorough break in, God knows how many dyno pulls and three passes at the Texas mile all over 220 mph and running 28 lbs of boost for the whole mile.These studs work and have been tested.

[Red 9]

Originally Posted by m42racer

Any part installed and or sold should always be tested and not taken for granted.



Remember the other Porsche 4V water cooled Turbo engines of the 80's. These engines are a simplified version of those engines, and they used to make 800 HP in qualification spec with lots of boost.
.

I would have thought something promoted and sold in a sealed packet with instructions and a specification of the product attached-- might actually be of that specification.

The second part of the quote-- these later engines are far superior design to earlier engines( I am presuming you mean air cooled earlier engines--earlier watercooled engines were especially dubious in turbo applications) . Many of the lessons learned in those earlier engines the factory designed out lot of the problems.
Many of the problems referred to here are at significently higher boost than was run in the past.

[MARKSKI@911tuning]

Not going to get into taking sides... but my car has stock head studs and even stock gaskets... thats a mid 900 rwhp car.. I know we ran 1.63 bar...
I also know that Bobby.s 993 that did 1000+ rwhp and is running 30+ psi has stock studs as well..
that's all I wanted to share..
mark

[WOODTSTER]

Originally Posted by art4iza

Thanks Alex. I know they could go well beyond that psi level. The crazy thing is none of us know at what point the heads will start to lift, I'm thinking beyond 35psi. But again who wants to stress these motors I will test them I guess Great looking studs by the way, good work Todd and EVOMS.

+1 Great Product Innovation

[WOODTSTER]

Originally Posted by m42racer

I cannot speak to all the reasons why some of these engines have failed. I was not involved in any of them. But it seems some here that were involved did not get involved either. It seems that the stud has gotten all of the blame. One post here stated some studs were different from one another. If this was the case, did you inspect these before installing them? Something as critical as a head Stud should always be inspected by the engine builder. This is something done by any good builder. Any part installed and or sold should always be tested and not taken for granted.

Yes, I agree there are many reasons why Head gaskets fail. If it can be directed towards the head stud, typically it can be found upon installation. Studs should be installed so that they can turn under tightening and should always be tightened with angle and not a torque. This takes the friction out of the equation. But most of the time it is because of other reasons. You need to look at what is going on when the studs are stretched. Everything. My advice is to look at everything and not just think its the studs.

The OEM studs may be OK if everything else is OK. Remember the other Porsche 4V water cooled Turbo engines of the 80's. These engines are a simplified version of those engines, and they used to make 800 HP in qualification spec with lots of boost. They were smaller displacement so the Cylinder pressures were higher verses bore size. They had 10.00mm studs, and nothing special I'm told. Many other engines have or make well over 1000HP and either use ARP studs or some other type and do not have issues with Head gaskets as a fault. Experience gives some a leg up over those with little or none. This goes for many things in life and its not any different in engine building.

Head Studs are are an important part of any engine, but today if you know your stuff, should not be an issue. Apply good engineering, good product and the problem will no be an issue.

It would not be fair of me to post here what to do to make these engines last. 3 companies offer this proven solution and to state what it is so that those other companies that do not know or have failed to find a solution could find out here for free, is not right. This is about business and the investment should be protected.

Although I do not agree with everything you have to say (or am I claiming specific knowledge), but you obviously are knowledgeable in this area.
Who are the "three companies" that offer solutions ?
Are they German ?

Please tell...

[joetwint]

Originally Posted by MARKSKI@911tuning

Not going to get into taking sides... but my car has stock head studs and even stock gaskets... thats a mid 900 rwhp car.. I know we ran 1.63 bar...
I also know that Bobby.s 993 that did 1000+ rwhp and is running 30+ psi has stock studs as well..
that's all I wanted to share..
mark

I understand your point Mark,but would you go out tomorrow and run 2.0 bar confidently and not worry about it?Next time you have teh car up on the lift take a good look all the way around the heads
.

[joetwint]

I don't know why I am arguing.....everyone should stay on the stock studs and you guys will all be fineBetter for me Marty I would assume one of those companies is Performance Developments.They are building Chad's monster and using 12mm upgraded studs

[robmd99]

My heads never leaked (fingers crossed) and I have ran more than 30 lbs of boost! With this said, I do think that BBI and EVOMS head studs are a GREAT improvement. So when my heads studs finally surrender to my boost levels I will upgrade!

Robert

[KPG]

Originally Posted by m42racer

I cannot speak to all the reasons why some of these engines have failed. I was not involved in any of them.

Then to continue speaking of them makes you look foolish, unless you care to share your background and affiliation with one of the 3 "proven solutions" that will allow all members to judge the depth and veracity of your knowledge and make an informed decison about you,your motives, and head studs in general....

[cjv]

Originally Posted by KPG

Then to continue speaking of them makes you look foolish, unless you care to share your background and affiliation with one of the 3 "proven solutions" that will allow all members to judge the depth and veracity of your knowledge and make an informed decison about you,your motives, and head studs in general....

KPG, I know you and I know m42racer. You both know me. I can vouch that Simon is no fly by night and knows in depth these motors. I also know what information he is trying to protect and why. It probably would have been better to have said nothing than to give out limited information.

I really don't believe Simon is knocking the EVO product, he is trying to say there is something more that doesn't meet the eye and the product is not a cure all. I do believe it is definitely a better than stock product. But not a silver bullet by itself.

There really isn't any reason for people of the caliber involved here to be getting personal.

[art4iza]

Here is what I heard from VR after talking to him "I had STOCK studs in my motor that ran for over 27,000 miles and made 1109rwhp at 35psi! They can call Todd or Betim to verify!" This message came from him directly so m42racer does have a point here. Procedures, procedures,....

[KPG]

Originally Posted by cjv

KPG, I know you and I know m42racer. You both know me. I can vouch that Simon is no fly by night and knows in depth these motors. I also know what information he is trying to protect and why. It probably would have been better to have said nothing than to give out limited information.

Agreed, for someone trying to protect proprietary information his post is a bit odd . I know Simon's posts from RL, and I do know his depth of knowledge but many do not. It was the manner of his post that came across as arrogant. I am sure it wasnt meant that way but we all know the internet translates tone very poorly.
I am interested in what he has to offer. I currently have ARP studs and feel somewhat exposed at the moment. I will still run my car regardless, but I may be looking for a solution in the winter if things go poorly in TX with sustained boost for a mile. If he was as free with information as you have been in the past we would all benefit

[cjv]

Originally Posted by joetwint

I don't know why I am arguing.....everyone should stay on the stock studs and you guys will all be fineBetter for me Marty I would assume one of those companies is Performance Developments.They are building Chad's monster and using 12mm upgraded studs

Joe,

You know I don't like secrets. PD has developed my heads and studs. Protomotive follows a similar technique, however I do not believe to the same degree. I guess it comes down to how good is good enough for your particular application.

Back to the secrets, and I do not know the particulars, type of steel, stud diameter, depth of thread, thread taper, not bottoming out the thread, type of thread, angle of thread, machining the head for a particular cut washer, the design of the cut washer. lubricant used and torquing/assembly procedure.

Any of these thing will improve the system. Do I believe the EVO studs are a step forward .... yes. Are there different ways to get better hold down ..... yes. It all comes down to what you want to hold down and at what cost.

I'm a fan of anyone who progresses the forward march of these motors. I believe what EVO has offered is another step in the right direction.

[cjv]

Originally Posted by KPG

Agreed, for someone trying to protect proprietary information his post is a bit odd . I know Simon's posts from RL, and I do know his depth of knowledge but many do not. It was the manner of his post that came across as arrogant. I am sure it wasnt meant that way but we all know the internet translates tone very poorly.
I am interested in what he has to offer. I currently have ARP studs and feel somewhat exposed at the moment. I will still run my car regardless, but I may be looking for a solution in the winter if things go poorly in TX with sustained boost for a mile. If he was as free with information as you have been in the past we would all benefit

KPG, I agree with how people are taken on the internet, recently this was post about me:

"I have mixed feelings about this. Would have liked to see you complete it, as I'm a car guy, but then again you bragged a lot and derailed dozens of threads never backing up your claims for years:"

Certainly not how I viewed myself however it gave me cause to pause and take another look at how I am viewed.