Thinking of building your motor? New EVOMS Head Studs...

[MARKSKI@911tuning]

Originally Posted by joetwint I understand your point Mark,but would you go out tomorrow and run 2.0 bar confidently and not worry about it?Next time you have teh car up on the lift take a good look all the way around the heads . No I would not and i never will... that is not where we set the car to be at... I run 1.5 bar comfortably... Yet it did peak 984rwhp at 23 psi... But then doing a dyno run here and there is not the ideal test either. Like I said, I just wanted to share that's all... I am all for whatever works... mark

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[joetwint]

Originally Posted by art4iza

Here is what I heard from VR after talking to him "I had STOCK studs in my motor that ran for over 27,000 miles and made 1109rwhp at 35psi! They can call Todd or Betim to verify!" This message came from him directly so m42racer does have a point here. Procedures, procedures,....

Absolutely great point Art,except for the fact that Alex stated many times he had the heads "welded" on with some kind of straps.Although admittedly i am not sure if i believe him on that one.It takes proper procedures to do anything in life.If you build a house out of straw using the best "procedures" possible and employ the best home builders to build it it still isn't going to hold up to a hurricane.

[joetwint]

Originally Posted by kpg

it was the manner of his post that came across as arrogant. I am sure it wasnt meant that way but we all know the internet translates tone very poorly.
I am interested in what he has to offer.

+1...

[joetwint]

Originally Posted by MARKSKI@911tuning

No I would not and i never will... that is not where we set the car to be at... I run 1.5 bar comfortably... Yet it did peak 984rwhp at 23 psi...
But then doing a dyno run here and there is not the ideal test either.
Like I said, I just wanted to share that's all... I am all for whatever works...
mark

I understand and was not arguing with you on whether your car is set up to do so rather just trying to make a point.

[KPG]

Originally Posted by joetwint

just trying to make a point.

Everyone should just make their point at the TX Mile.... a lot simpler this way!

[Evolution MotorSports]

FWIW,

Installation procedure is CRITICAL and I agree with some of what has been stated. This is not our first rodeo with building high powered Porsche engines. We have built over 150 996TT engines throughout the years and we have learned many things along the way. There is no Porsche manual that tells you how to do some of this. Let’s face it, we are pushing these engines well beyond what some components had ever been intended to withstand. Neil at PD has been doing this a long time and I respect what he does. Also, he did not wake up one day and have all of the answers either. This is a learning process and figuring out better ways of doing things and developing new products to improve upon the entire process is how we are ALL able to continue to push the envelope.

Every engine we build gets assembled using tested procedures from Porsche as well as ones that we have developed. Regarding the head stud installation, this is an area where I agree 100%. Here is a quote from our product release:

"Besides creating a stronger head stud, we incorporated features to make them easier to install and developed an installation procedure to help ensure proper head sealing. Our multi step torque process was developed to minimize installation torque variables and yield the most accurate clamp pressures."

Installation errors can be reduced with an assembly procedure that minimizes error. There are a lot of variables when torque is applied to head studs that were mentioned. I agree that many failures can be attributed to installation, however we have seen some that point to other reasons, thus our desire to create a better head stud that addressed some of the concerns we had with others.

All in all, I believe that we are on the same page with a lot of the different opinions that were stated. I also believe that there are many ways to fix the same problem. Here are a few examples of problems – problems solved:

Example 1: Porsche race engines that made tremendous power lived under tremendous boost. Solution: Weld the heads to prevent lifting.

Example 2: Big powered air cooled 993 turbo engines. Solution: Nirosist ring (flame ring) the heads and cylinders to help prevent the side of the head blowing out when the heads lift.

Example 3: 996TT engine making tremendous power with stock head gaskets and head studs. Solution: increase head sealing pressures and combustion containment with additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Example 4: 996TT engine making well over 1100 HP and 30 PSI of boost. Solution: 12mm head studs with more clamping pressure and a stronger head gasket without additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

[sharkster]

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

FWIW,

Installation procedure is CRITICAL and I agree with some of what has been stated. This is not our first rodeo with building high powered Porsche engines. We have built over 150 996TT engines throughout the years and we have learned many things along the way. There is no Porsche manual that tells you how to do some of this. Let’s face it, we are pushing these engines well beyond what some components had ever been intended to withstand. Neil at PD has been doing this a long time and I respect what he does. Also, he did not wake up one day and have all of the answers either. This is a learning process and figuring out better ways of doing things and developing new products to improve upon the entire process is how we are ALL able to continue to push the envelope.

Every engine we build gets assembled using tested procedures from Porsche as well as ones that we have developed. Regarding the head stud installation, this is an area where I agree 100%. Here is a quote from our product release:

"Besides creating a stronger head stud, we incorporated features to make them easier to install and developed an installation procedure to help ensure proper head sealing. Our multi step torque process was developed to minimize installation torque variables and yield the most accurate clamp pressures."

Installation errors can be reduced with an assembly procedure that minimizes error. There are a lot of variables when torque is applied to head studs that were mentioned. I agree that many failures can be attributed to installation, however we have seen some that point to other reasons, thus our desire to create a better head stud that addressed some of the concerns we had with others.

All in all, I believe that we are on the same page with a lot of the different opinions that were stated. I also believe that there are many ways to fix the same problem. Here are a few examples of problems – problems solved:

Example 1: Porsche race engines that made tremendous power lived under tremendous boost. Solution: Weld the heads to prevent lifting.

Example 2: Big powered air cooled 993 turbo engines. Solution: Nirosist ring (flame ring) the heads and cylinders to help prevent the side of the head blowing out when the heads lift.

Example 3: 996TT engine making tremendous power with stock head gaskets and head studs. Solution: increase head sealing pressures and combustion containment with additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Example 4: 996TT engine making well over 1100 HP and 30 PSI of boost. Solution: 12mm head studs with more clamping pressure and a stronger head gasket without additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Great post +1

[Powell]

Wish I was taking my motor apart while we were doing my new turbos. I really could uses these studs!

Great Post from Evolution Motorsports by the way!

[BBI Betim]

Originally Posted by m42racer

Head Studs are are an important part of any engine, but today if you know your stuff, should not be an issue. Apply good engineering, good product and the problem will no be an issue.

You are on the correct path. Thread shear vs 260KSI tensile strength.

m42racer PM Me sometime.

[PALETTE]

WOW i cant believe all the bashing that goes on here! Guys what the heck! EVOM puts out a good product, Sharky is promoting it and its up to us the end user if we want to buy it, try it and use it. I understand fulling that as soon as you mod a car it stands a chance of breaking at any point. Hell i built a Blower mustang 6 years back and the motor had to come out after the car broke a steel crank in the burn out box! STUFF happens!!

Congrats to Evoms! great product Development!! Glad to see that the 996 is not being toss to the side and development has stopped.

Alex Again. Great thread you started! Cheers!!

[Red 9]

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

FWIW,

Installation procedure is CRITICAL and I agree with some of what has been stated. This is not our first rodeo with building high powered Porsche engines. We have built over 150 996TT engines throughout the years and we have learned many things along the way. There is no Porsche manual that tells you how to do some of this. Let’s face it, we are pushing these engines well beyond what some components had ever been intended to withstand. Neil at PD has been doing this a long time and I respect what he does. Also, he did not wake up one day and have all of the answers either. This is a learning process and figuring out better ways of doing things and developing new products to improve upon the entire process is how we are ALL able to continue to push the envelope.

Every engine we build gets assembled using tested procedures from Porsche as well as ones that we have developed. Regarding the head stud installation, this is an area where I agree 100%. Here is a quote from our product release:

"Besides creating a stronger head stud, we incorporated features to make them easier to install and developed an installation procedure to help ensure proper head sealing. Our multi step torque process was developed to minimize installation torque variables and yield the most accurate clamp pressures."

Installation errors can be reduced with an assembly procedure that minimizes error. There are a lot of variables when torque is applied to head studs that were mentioned. I agree that many failures can be attributed to installation, however we have seen some that point to other reasons, thus our desire to create a better head stud that addressed some of the concerns we had with others.


Example 1: Porsche race engines that made tremendous power lived under tremendous boost. Solution: Weld the heads to prevent lifting.

Example 2: Big powered air cooled 993 turbo engines. Solution: Nirosist ring (flame ring) the heads and cylinders to help prevent the side of the head blowing out when the heads lift.

Example 3: 996TT engine making tremendous power with stock head gaskets and head studs. Solution: increase head sealing pressures and combustion containment with additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Example 4: 996TT engine making well over 1100 HP and 30 PSI of boost. Solution: 12mm head studs with more clamping pressure and a stronger head gasket without additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Thanks for your expert comment.
With example 4-- are you satisfied with this solution ie is it succesfull? Where would you go from there?

[sharkster]

Originally Posted by PALETTE

WOW i cant believe all the bashing that goes on here! Guys what the heck! EVOM puts out a good product, Sharky is promoting it and its up to us the end user if we want to buy it, try it and use it. I understand fulling that as soon as you mod a car it stands a chance of breaking at any point. Hell i built a Blower mustang 6 years back and the motor had to come out after the car broke a steel crank in the burn out box! STUFF happens!!

Congrats to Evoms! great product Development!! Glad to see that the 996 is not being toss to the side and development has stopped.

Alex Again. Great thread you started! Cheers!!

Cheers for the support PALETTE... Sad to see it to but yes there's a lot of politics and behind the scenes passive-aggressive stuff going on but the fact does remain that whether it's an EVOMS, Protomotive, SharkWerks etc... built engine more often than not in the past ARP head studs were recommended and/or used during the build and issues have been found with the consistency of the metallurgy of the ARP's... Luckily EVOMS has got this solution which they've proven to work in cars with 700-1000hp

[m42racer]

If I came across arrogant it was not my intention. If you took it this way, then all I can say is sorry.

I have absolutely nothing against the EVOMS Head stud. They look like they are made by A1 and this company make some great fasteners. My beef is and has always been how the ARP stud has taken it in the shorts when the problem is and has never been with the stud.

[joetwint]

Originally Posted by sharkster

Cheers for the support PALETTE... Sad to see it to but yes there's a lot of politics and behind the scenes passive-aggressive stuff going on but the fact does remain that whether it's an EVOMS, Protomotive, SharkWerks etc... built engine more often than not in the past ARP head studs were recommended and/or used during the build and issues have been found with the consistency of the metallurgy of the ARP's... Luckily EVOMS has got this solution which they've proven to work in cars with 700-1000hp

+1 and I am sure you have seen the case they came in and the accompanied torque specs which were suggested by ARP that were absolutely wrong.I bet some of the techs that installed the ARP studs went with the ARP suggested torque specs.

[cjv]

Originally Posted by Evolution MotorSports

FWIW,

Installation procedure is CRITICAL and I agree with some of what has been stated. This is not our first rodeo with building high powered Porsche engines. We have built over 150 996TT engines throughout the years and we have learned many things along the way. There is no Porsche manual that tells you how to do some of this. Let’s face it, we are pushing these engines well beyond what some components had ever been intended to withstand. Neil at PD has been doing this a long time and I respect what he does. Also, he did not wake up one day and have all of the answers either. This is a learning process and figuring out better ways of doing things and developing new products to improve upon the entire process is how we are ALL able to continue to push the envelope.

Every engine we build gets assembled using tested procedures from Porsche as well as ones that we have developed. Regarding the head stud installation, this is an area where I agree 100%. Here is a quote from our product release:

"Besides creating a stronger head stud, we incorporated features to make them easier to install and developed an installation procedure to help ensure proper head sealing. Our multi step torque process was developed to minimize installation torque variables and yield the most accurate clamp pressures."

Installation errors can be reduced with an assembly procedure that minimizes error. There are a lot of variables when torque is applied to head studs that were mentioned. I agree that many failures can be attributed to installation, however we have seen some that point to other reasons, thus our desire to create a better head stud that addressed some of the concerns we had with others.

All in all, I believe that we are on the same page with a lot of the different opinions that were stated. I also believe that there are many ways to fix the same problem. Here are a few examples of problems – problems solved:

Example 1: Porsche race engines that made tremendous power lived under tremendous boost. Solution: Weld the heads to prevent lifting.

Example 2: Big powered air cooled 993 turbo engines. Solution: Nirosist ring (flame ring) the heads and cylinders to help prevent the side of the head blowing out when the heads lift.

Example 3: 996TT engine making tremendous power with stock head gaskets and head studs. Solution: increase head sealing pressures and combustion containment with additional copper or steel o-rings in the head

Example 4: 996TT engine making well over 1100 HP and 30 PSI of boost. Solution: 12mm head studs with more clamping pressure and a stronger head gasket without additional copper or steel o-rings in the head