Can the 996 Turbo handle like a GT3?
#151
02-08-2010, 08:29 AM
just some corrections
While the modded turbo vs cup car times tangent is interesting, the OP wanted to know if a turbo could be made to handle like a GT3. For arguments sake, let's just say you pull the complete suspension off a GT3 and put it on a turbo converted to 2wd (even if you had to weld up new pickup points, etc.). You'd still have 2 problems that you can't overcome short of anti-matter physics:
1) the turbo engine weighs more and is the wrong spot. yes it does way more, however, it also has more weight in front. The turbo actually has a better weight distribution than both the GT2 and the GT3, it is also more forgiving and has been shown that many times.
2) the turbo throttle is much more difficult to control precisely.Not true at all. I can meter my throttle. I have said before if you go with the mid power level cars and smaller turbos you can easily meter the throttle.
Some turbo guys may argue with point 2 by saying "well my car starts building boost at 2500rpms blah, blah, blah," but that misses the point. I'm not talking about boost threshhold, I'm talking about the huge delta in manifold pressure on/off boost mid corner when you are having to make delicate and precise corrections right at the edge of the grip envelope. The more power/boost you make, the bigger the problem because the torque swings are huge and difficult to control (build boost, release boost, build it again, release it). Watch the throttle map of a really good driver mid corner, there are constant adjustments.again, not true see above comment.
So the answer is an unqualified "no," a turbo can't be made to handle "as well as" a GT3. again, not true. That has already been proven, not sure where you get your info.
Lap after lap, every driver on earth (schumacher included) is going to make mistakes, and those mistakes are much easier to correct in a GT3. definitely not true.
rephrasing the question, "can a turbo be made faster than a GT3?" The answer is yes because horsepower ultimately wins. faster yes, equal handling yes, faster on a track, absolutely.....
1) the turbo engine weighs more and is the wrong spot. yes it does way more, however, it also has more weight in front. The turbo actually has a better weight distribution than both the GT2 and the GT3, it is also more forgiving and has been shown that many times.
2) the turbo throttle is much more difficult to control precisely.Not true at all. I can meter my throttle. I have said before if you go with the mid power level cars and smaller turbos you can easily meter the throttle.
Some turbo guys may argue with point 2 by saying "well my car starts building boost at 2500rpms blah, blah, blah," but that misses the point. I'm not talking about boost threshhold, I'm talking about the huge delta in manifold pressure on/off boost mid corner when you are having to make delicate and precise corrections right at the edge of the grip envelope. The more power/boost you make, the bigger the problem because the torque swings are huge and difficult to control (build boost, release boost, build it again, release it). Watch the throttle map of a really good driver mid corner, there are constant adjustments.again, not true see above comment.
So the answer is an unqualified "no," a turbo can't be made to handle "as well as" a GT3. again, not true. That has already been proven, not sure where you get your info.
Lap after lap, every driver on earth (schumacher included) is going to make mistakes, and those mistakes are much easier to correct in a GT3. definitely not true.
rephrasing the question, "can a turbo be made faster than a GT3?" The answer is yes because horsepower ultimately wins. faster yes, equal handling yes, faster on a track, absolutely.....
#152
02-08-2010, 09:22 AM
Absolutely no one has said anything about beating a Cup Car in a full race.
The fastest RSR qualified Petit LeMans this year at a 1:21.299
Al Norton runs 1:29's fairly easy on off the shelf Hoosier R100's with PSM on and admittedly not pushing in the corners. A pro driver would run a 1:26 in his car which is more than enough to keep up with regular cup cars. (The fastest Patron Challenge Cup car ran a 1:26 something). The Evom's race prepped TT ran a 1:28 on R6's.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. A little over 2 years ago, Al was running 1:50's in this same car (Minus a bunch of mods) and he's in his 60's.
It's right there in front of you, I really don't get it.......
Al driving the way he was would have qualified 7th in the PCA club race among all cup cars. If you think 40 guys show up to a club race and don't know what they are doing you are on something.
Leh Keen ran a 1:25 in a 996 Cup Converted to RSR spec, and a 1:21 in an unrestricted RSR. And he'd run a 1:25,1:26 in Al's car too. Which isn't nearly a Alzen spec car. But I'm sure there would still be be a bunch of nonsense doubting even if he did that.
Like I said, time will tell, and I'll make sure to point it out when it does.
The fastest RSR qualified Petit LeMans this year at a 1:21.299
Al Norton runs 1:29's fairly easy on off the shelf Hoosier R100's with PSM on and admittedly not pushing in the corners. A pro driver would run a 1:26 in his car which is more than enough to keep up with regular cup cars. (The fastest Patron Challenge Cup car ran a 1:26 something). The Evom's race prepped TT ran a 1:28 on R6's.
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. A little over 2 years ago, Al was running 1:50's in this same car (Minus a bunch of mods) and he's in his 60's.
It's right there in front of you, I really don't get it.......
Al driving the way he was would have qualified 7th in the PCA club race among all cup cars. If you think 40 guys show up to a club race and don't know what they are doing you are on something.
Leh Keen ran a 1:25 in a 996 Cup Converted to RSR spec, and a 1:21 in an unrestricted RSR. And he'd run a 1:25,1:26 in Al's car too. Which isn't nearly a Alzen spec car. But I'm sure there would still be be a bunch of nonsense doubting even if he did that.
Like I said, time will tell, and I'll make sure to point it out when it does.
#154
02-08-2010, 10:13 AM
- All four adjustable Lower Control Arms
- Moton 3-ways
- Rear Upper Control Arms
- TRG beefy Drop Links
- Front and Rear Sways
- Bump Steer Kits
- Hoosier R100
- All solid subframe Bushings
- Built Motor that revs to 8k rpm
- 650-700 hp
- Getty 63 inch wing
- 4 inch splitter (from the tip of the aero splitter)
- Some weight reduction (about 3250-3330 lbs no driver)
I think that's most of it, but it's not cheap at all. It is of my opinion that you can go as fast without some of those mods if you plan smartly, and not throw the bank at the suspension like many people tend to do unwittingly with the driver skill, nor any instruction.
Al has also had pro instruction from current and former World Challenge drivers. In fact a former World Challenge driver was his instructor for about a year at every event yelling MORE POWER!!! (literally the whole time, he has video of it). That's what got him from the 1:50's to the 1:20's in the course of about a year.
#155
02-08-2010, 10:14 AM
... Again, go back and read what I posted... 90% of the guys here are looking for solutions to make their cars have a chance at DE events... Can I make a Street 996TT handle as well as a street GT3? I think I can. I think I have. But hey, take that out of context and use it at will... The fun of this thread is gone, and I'm done.
Mike[/quote]
In my small country there are only 2 GT3 997,none 996 GT3.I have,so far,the only 996TT and we went to the track 1 GT3 with a bounch of another guys with 4 Ferrari F430.I beat all of them including the GT3 997 which was second by 6 seconds after me on a 2 miles track.The guy didn't like it
and we all are VERY BAD DRIVERS.
SMR says his car GT2 VERY HIGH MODDED is the fastest street car in Nurburgring-that makes me happy
FOR AMATEUR GUYS
A 996TT CAN BEAT A 997GT3 IN ATRACK WITH FEW MODDS
Mike[/quote]
In my small country there are only 2 GT3 997,none 996 GT3.I have,so far,the only 996TT and we went to the track 1 GT3 with a bounch of another guys with 4 Ferrari F430.I beat all of them including the GT3 997 which was second by 6 seconds after me on a 2 miles track.The guy didn't like it
and we all are VERY BAD DRIVERS.SMR says his car GT2 VERY HIGH MODDED is the fastest street car in Nurburgring
-that makes me happyFOR AMATEUR GUYS
A 996TT CAN BEAT A 997GT3 IN ATRACK WITH FEW MODDS
#156
02-08-2010, 10:15 AM
Disclaimer: Needs about 20k in suspension mods and another 10 in power mods to run with stock GT3's.
#157
02-08-2010, 10:25 AM
I put it in the other post. He has all the upgrades without going to the RSR stuff:
- All four adjustable Lower Control Arms
- Moton 3-ways
- Rear Upper Control Arms
- TRG beefy Drop Links
- Front and Rear Sways
- Bump Steer Kits
- Hoosier R100
- All solid subframe Bushings
- Built Motor that revs to 8k rpm
- 650-700 hp
- Getty 63 inch wing
- 4 inch splitter (from the tip of the aero splitter)
- Some weight reduction (about 3250-3330 lbs no driver)
I think that's most of it, but it's not cheap at all. It is of my opinion that you can go as fast without some of those mods if you plan smartly, and not throw the bank at the suspension like many people tend to do unwittingly with the driver skill, nor any instruction.
Al has also had pro instruction from current and former World Challenge drivers. In fact a former World Challenge driver was his instructor for about a year at every event yelling MORE POWER!!! (literally the whole time, he has video of it). That's what got him from the 1:50's to the 1:20's in the course of about a year.
- All four adjustable Lower Control Arms
- Moton 3-ways
- Rear Upper Control Arms
- TRG beefy Drop Links
- Front and Rear Sways
- Bump Steer Kits
- Hoosier R100
- All solid subframe Bushings
- Built Motor that revs to 8k rpm
- 650-700 hp
- Getty 63 inch wing
- 4 inch splitter (from the tip of the aero splitter)
- Some weight reduction (about 3250-3330 lbs no driver)
I think that's most of it, but it's not cheap at all. It is of my opinion that you can go as fast without some of those mods if you plan smartly, and not throw the bank at the suspension like many people tend to do unwittingly with the driver skill, nor any instruction.
Al has also had pro instruction from current and former World Challenge drivers. In fact a former World Challenge driver was his instructor for about a year at every event yelling MORE POWER!!! (literally the whole time, he has video of it). That's what got him from the 1:50's to the 1:20's in the course of about a year.
I missed that post. I am curious if RWD conversion with cup uprights, Motons, sway bars and adjustable control arms would make the car handle as well as Al's car without having to mod to the 650-700hp range? With 415 HP the car should be able to do well with proper steering and suspension geometry.
#158
02-08-2010, 06:46 PM
Let's see now, I want to make sure I understand this:
1) walter rohrl says the GT3 throttle is much easier to modulate than the GT2 (tuned by Porsche motorsport engineers)
2) some dude from colorado on the internet thinks rohrl is an idiot and his turbo throttle is just as easy to modulate as a GT3.
Why are we continuing to have this discussion?
If the turbo throttle is as easy to modulate as an NA, please explain to everyone how the blow-off valves and turbo spool are able to swing through over twice the manifold pressure cyclically (from full open to full closed) with the same precision? It's just plain, simple physics, what you are describing is impossible.
This is why the lower HP cars are generally much faster than the turbos than the power/weight ratios would indicate. They are easier to drive at the limit because you can adjust to exact torque requirements without a bunch of intermediate mechanical whirlygigs.
I still love a boost hit, I just don't oversubscribe.
1) walter rohrl says the GT3 throttle is much easier to modulate than the GT2 (tuned by Porsche motorsport engineers)
2) some dude from colorado on the internet thinks rohrl is an idiot and his turbo throttle is just as easy to modulate as a GT3.
Why are we continuing to have this discussion?
If the turbo throttle is as easy to modulate as an NA, please explain to everyone how the blow-off valves and turbo spool are able to swing through over twice the manifold pressure cyclically (from full open to full closed) with the same precision? It's just plain, simple physics, what you are describing is impossible.
This is why the lower HP cars are generally much faster than the turbos than the power/weight ratios would indicate. They are easier to drive at the limit because you can adjust to exact torque requirements without a bunch of intermediate mechanical whirlygigs.
I still love a boost hit, I just don't oversubscribe.
#159
02-08-2010, 07:11 PM
let's just say that in stock form the GT3 spanks a turbo on the track, period. Walter rohrl does not drive modded turbos, so it makes no sense to include him in this discussion. Please leave poor Walter out of this,
#161
02-09-2010, 02:08 AM
30-40K upgraded TT to beat gt3 or early cup. Could anyone chime in about GT3 and put mod tt or gt2 engine? Would it be possible for best of both world? Is it cost effective than mod TT to fight the rest?
#162
02-09-2010, 02:30 AM
GTDeux, Chill out man, it was a lighthearted response. You are taking that way too seriously.
Throttle modulation has next to NOTHING to do with why the GT3 is nearly as fast as the GT2. The real reasons are as follows:
Handling: There is no handling advantage to the GT2, in fact it's probably worse because it's heavier with more stuff in the rear (turbos, oil coolers etc)
Weight: The GT3 is 100 lbs lighter than the GT2, this will make braking distances significantly shorter and available grip significantly more effective. Especially on street tires.
HP: On paper the GT3 is at a significant disadvantage, but the fact is that the GT2 only has a small window where it can use more power than the GT3 especially on street tires. The stickier the tire, the bigger the gap will be, because the GT2 can put down more hp earlier and extend the window of it's power advantage. But it's already losing in the braking department.
Revs: This is the key one. The GT3 revs to 1600 more revs than the GT2, the final gears are the same, but this means the GT3 will go significantly further per gear meaning less shifts and less time waisted shifting. It also distributes torque more evenly allowing more throttle input and grip. The GT2 would rape with a 8000 rpm limit.
The disadvantage to FI is Revs, not throttle response, although a driver likes the throttle response as fast as you can get.
Throttle modulation has next to NOTHING to do with why the GT3 is nearly as fast as the GT2. The real reasons are as follows:
Handling: There is no handling advantage to the GT2, in fact it's probably worse because it's heavier with more stuff in the rear (turbos, oil coolers etc)
Weight: The GT3 is 100 lbs lighter than the GT2, this will make braking distances significantly shorter and available grip significantly more effective. Especially on street tires.
HP: On paper the GT3 is at a significant disadvantage, but the fact is that the GT2 only has a small window where it can use more power than the GT3 especially on street tires. The stickier the tire, the bigger the gap will be, because the GT2 can put down more hp earlier and extend the window of it's power advantage. But it's already losing in the braking department.
Revs: This is the key one. The GT3 revs to 1600 more revs than the GT2, the final gears are the same, but this means the GT3 will go significantly further per gear meaning less shifts and less time waisted shifting. It also distributes torque more evenly allowing more throttle input and grip. The GT2 would rape with a 8000 rpm limit.
The disadvantage to FI is Revs, not throttle response, although a driver likes the throttle response as fast as you can get.
#163
02-09-2010, 02:40 AM
If it takes you 30-40k to beat a stock GT3 then you need to invest in coaching, not modifications. There are guys out there that will beat the vast majority of these big builds with a next to stock T1 C5 Z06, base C6, detuned Viper, or Ferrari 360, if that is the case, it's the driver that needs work, not the car.
Now a Cup Car is different, it's a 250k+ car. But you won't get anywhere near that in a street GT3, but you can in a Turbo. 40k to run with a Cup Car is pocket change comparatively speaking.
In my honest opinion, you can still do it for much less IF you have the skill of the Cup driver you are comparing too, and know the right mods to get and what they do.
Half of the big suspension builds here entail a lot of parts the driver neither knows what they really do, or how to make use of them for faster times. It's just a bunch of stuff they bought. That is pointless.
Making a Turbo do a few laps a day in Cup car speed territory is one thing, but trying to make it complete a race with one is another. You are talking big bucks.
#164
02-09-2010, 03:03 AM
This thread is beyond embarrassing... anyone out there who is in to their racing is LTFAO right now.
#165
02-09-2010, 03:54 AM
Registered User
So lets review. 996 Turbo can not be made to handle better than the following:
Any 997 Cup Cars
Any 996 Cup Cars
Any 997 GT3 Street cars of any form
Any 996 GT3 Street cars of any form
Any other 997 varient of 911
Any other 996 varient of 911
Any 993 varient of 911
Any 964 varient of 911
Any year prior 911
Any year 912
Any year 987
Now, just to make it easy for those catching up:
Any Year Corvette
Any Year Mustang
Any Year or Make of BMW
Any Year or Make of Audi
Any Year of the Mazda Rx8
Any Year of the Mazda Rx7
Any Year of the Toyota Supra
Any Year of the Nissan 370Z
Any Year of the Nissan 350Z
Any Year of the Nissan 300ZX
Any Year or Varient of Nissan 280Z/ZX
I'm pretty sure we can safely say that the only cars you'll be able to hang with on a road course "might" be the 4 door sedans of the 1970s-1980s emissions/ gas crisis era...
Hope that clears up any misunderstandings.
Save your money and start doing the "waxer" and "show and shine" routine...
Oh, and Stevo, Please just tell us what the hell the transmission is in your car, Mkay? Enough of the "super secret" ambiguity.
Mike
Any 997 Cup Cars
Any 996 Cup Cars
Any 997 GT3 Street cars of any form
Any 996 GT3 Street cars of any form
Any other 997 varient of 911
Any other 996 varient of 911
Any 993 varient of 911
Any 964 varient of 911
Any year prior 911
Any year 912
Any year 987
Now, just to make it easy for those catching up:
Any Year Corvette
Any Year Mustang
Any Year or Make of BMW
Any Year or Make of Audi
Any Year of the Mazda Rx8
Any Year of the Mazda Rx7
Any Year of the Toyota Supra
Any Year of the Nissan 370Z
Any Year of the Nissan 350Z
Any Year of the Nissan 300ZX
Any Year or Varient of Nissan 280Z/ZX
I'm pretty sure we can safely say that the only cars you'll be able to hang with on a road course "might" be the 4 door sedans of the 1970s-1980s emissions/ gas crisis era...
Hope that clears up any misunderstandings.
Save your money and start doing the "waxer" and "show and shine" routine...
Oh, and Stevo, Please just tell us what the hell the transmission is in your car, Mkay? Enough of the "super secret" ambiguity.
Mike