Octane rating of fuel has been a life long problem for most of the cars I have owned. Almost every one of them has been producing at least 150 to 200 bhp per litre back in 1988. Fuel and quality versus availability and price has been a problem all along. I have always been a fan of water and methanol injection. 20 years ago it was just windscreen washer pumps in series to produce about 90 psi of pressure into an atomising jet. Only a boost switch for control. Even then it worked wonders on a Turbo Car.
With the advent of Computer control I believe it is one of the best solutions for the prevention of boost/timing detonation.
The problem with Race Gas or over here in the UK 99 octane plus an enhancer such as toluene means when you take your car out for a drive your burning your expensive fuel mix even going to the shops or driving steady.
I really like the idea of the Aqua mist. You only use it when its needed.
Frank.

 

Good point. If you have deep pockets, race gas is not an issue. I only drive my car 1500 to 2000 miles per year so I do not feel the price hit.

 

Originally Posted by TTdude
I think it would be a good move to switch to ms109. Methanol is very hygroscopic. It readlily absorbs water from the atmosphere and with water there is always a chance of corrosion, albeit small in your case. MS109 contains MTBE which arguably is just as good if not better blending additive than toluene. I believe ms109 also has xylenes rather than toluene. Certain xylenes have motor octane ratings 10 point higher than toluene. Basically, mixing in ms109 or toluene with pump gas really isn't going to do a whole lot for you. You need to run straight ms109 with the proper tune.

Using this logic nobody would run any of the Sunoco 100 products..heck... for that matter nobody in the entire state of CO [and many others] should even drive, as they all use ethanol, which is also VERY "hygroscopic," in their gasoline. The GODS of all race fuel, VP Themselves, uses ethanol in some of their race fuels. Hence the line below about the MS109-E. Again, someome smarter chime in, but I'm pretty sure there are outlawing MTBE altogether and replacing it with ethanol......I see the farmers have a good PAC!

Ethanol, just like MTBE, oxygenates the fuel and in doing do, raises octane. It already contains oxygen....you can connect the dots on how it works from there You might remember MTBE from the groundwater fiascos. If you order a drum of MS-109 and it arrives as MS109-E...yep your MTBE has been replaced by ethanol in your state. Someone out there smarter than me can answer this, but wasn't ther a new law coming in that banned MTBE on a federal level?


Toluene on the other hand is a pure aromatic hydrocarbon and is used in the making of all gasolines. It is not oxygenated lile ethanol and MTBE. Pump gas is typically 30% or so of both toluene and xylene.Want to tune 93 into 100 at the refinery/ More toluene and xylene..... Done. I think the numbers get as high as 50% Want to increase you 93 pump gas several points? Yep, just add some toluene [and xylene if you want to]. Done.

I'm not telling you to run down to the store and buy some...just that sometimes there is just too much wrong info posted ....

 

Not an issue if you don't mind never driving your car more than 1/2 tank of gas away from your home.

 

Bingo.

I've poured a 20L drum in my blown 7.4L Suburban and turned off the H2O/meth injection. Ran like a top. Haven't poured any in the TT yet. I've read you shouldn't go more than 1/3 per tank. I've also read that if using a higher concentration of toluene, you need to start adding lubricants to the mix. This would get to be a PITA quick.

 

Whoa, hold your jets $Man. Nothing I said was inaccurate. You are reading way more into what I said.

On the other hand, do you really think toluene and xylene are not as bad as MTBE for the environment? If you want to talk eco stuff, then start a new thread and we can discuss the merits of electric vs fuel cells.

As for your comment on oxygenated fuels--just because a fuel is oxygenated does NOT necessarily raise the octane level as you implied. Go ahead and add some acetone to your motor see if it knocks. You better hold your ears. Acetone contains one oxygen atom just like MTBE, ethanol, and methanol.

The irony in all this is I was the one who first told Ari's (the OP) tuner about adding toluene to pump fuel and even sent him an MSDS showing him the percentages.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

Yes, good point. But if I want to go on a long drive i will fire up the S600 (V12 Twin Turbo). She likes 91 octane.

 

I think that's the knock on xylene more than toluene, although gasoline is made with lubricants and detergents so running too much of anything in it would by nature lessen the effects of the inherent additives. I think I read somewhere that gasoline can have as much as 50% toluene and still be called "gasoline".....

Remember, in the old days [late70's early 80's maybe] the turbo F1 cars used to run straight toluene for fuel. Those cars were astouding...making 1500hp out of a 1.5L motor with something ridiculous like 75lbs [5BAR] of boost!

Long story short, I agree with you in that I wouldn't go over 30%...but....the darn stuff has gotten so expensive it does make more sense to just buy the race gas if you can find it...

But the comments about methanol/ethanol being dangerous because they attract/absorb water is just...well...misinformed. If our cars sat in marinas and had Verados or E-Tec's hanging off the square end, then it might be another issue....but ethanol is here to stay, mainly because of political pressure from corn farmers and environmentalists to ban MTBE. Toluene raises octane in a different way than ethanol or MTBE....

 

My original comment was directed to a fellow 6speeder not you Mr. $Man but I'm glad you corrected me on all my uninformed statements.

 

lllllets get ready to ruummmbbbllleeee!!!!!!

 

TT dude , do you think ms 109 is abetter race fuel then others since its oxygenated ?

 

You always crack me up.


Let me just say that I am not a petroleum engineer so take my reply for what it is worth. For our cars and using unleaded gas, my opinion is yes. MTBE has a higher energy content than ethanol per molecule so you will get more energy out of combusting MTBE per molecule than you would a molecule of ethanol. Sure, ethanol has a cooling effect but there are other issues with ethanol that would keep me at bay.

If you look up the energy content for toluene vs MTBE, toluene is about 15% higher. There is a reason why VP uses MTBE (and not ethanol) as their additive. If you look at the specific gravity of ms109 (~0.72) it's close to isooctane (~0.69) which is the reference hydrocarbon (100 mon) in octane (AKI) measurements. Toluene and xylene have specific gravities that are significantly higher (~0.88) which means that they are more dense and slower burning. MTBE is a better front end octane which means that it will have a burn rate similar to isooctane yet maintain high antiknock properties. While each separate component of the fuel has their own octane rating, when you blend, it's a different story. It's more complicated than just being additive by percentages which is why I metioned that MTBE is thought to have a better blending octane than toluene. When you change the overall composition of the fuel by adding components, it gets complicated. Others may have a different opinion but this is how I see it. Basically, it's an empirical science to determine the best blend. You blend, measure, analyze, and reblend until you get the optimum fuel. This is what you are paying for at $12 gallon for ms109. MTBE is also not cheap since it is not derived from petroleum distallates.

 

My eyes glazed over again ...from experience, MS109 is a great fuel, but C16 is the best turbo fuel, but not without it's penalty. It is ALMOST impossible to detonate with C16. If you let it sit though, it will eat your fuel system alive. If I was trying to run 2 bar of boost, I would run C16 exclusively, but I'm not, MS109 will be my fuel of choice for now.

 

cool thanks for the reply.

 

I've never used the stuff but I'm sure you're right. The specific gravity of that fuel is highest among all the other VP fuels so I would say it probably has a high content of aromatic hydrocarbons like toluene and xylene. It corresponds with your comment about detonating. If you mix in too much toluene in your tank, it's hard to crank over. Just ask me how I know...