Maintenance costs/year

[fdorn]

Originally Posted by PAULUNM What about non-scheduled repairs, I have heard a few horror stories- I am looking a '01-02 cars, so no warranty. I do have an independent mechanic that is VERY resonable... I bought an extended warranty from EasyCare when my car had 39,000. 3,500 for 30 month 30,000 miles 100 deductable. I would not buy a warranty from anyone else. To date I have had about 8k worth of warranty work and about 3,200 that I have spent. (2 years) Its pretty much covered everything that was not maintence or releated to a hose. If you have a good independent (they can do warranty work also) then maintanecne isn't that bad. And I have to agree with other, mechanically these cars are bullet proof. Most of the warranty work was not mechanical for me (air bag and seat belt buckle sensor, seat belt height adjust, sun sensor, vacuum leak (?) and some other I can't remember. They even covered a read tire that had a nail in it - replaced it. And I have to agree, the cars are bullet proof. Most of the work I had was not mechanical. Air bag, drive seat would shift like a 1/16 of an each when I sat in it, seat belt height adjustment, sun senor,vacuum leak(?). Dealer charged me 1200 to change plugs. My indy is about 1/2 that. Problem is that the dealer was 600 buck into (removed bumber etc) before I found out it wouldn't be covered. My fault, no theirs because I told them to go ahead thinking it would be covered.

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[andrejs]

Wow that frustrates me.. Lol, just about any other car is more reliable than my B5 S4. I always was under the impression that Porsches didn't do well when it came to reliability. Great to hear otherwise though

[Chuck Jones]

Oh C'mon Bill (Statsman): You skewed the results. You threw a red herring into the mix. You sugar coated the question. I call "no fairzees" on your response. He asked for annual maintenance costs and you come back with "it was under warranty".....suffice it to say, you're probably driving an almost new car given all the stuff that's been replaced under warranty. More power to you my man for being able to defer the costs.... and Great selling point should you choose to do so.

But back to the issue....what does it cost to run these puppies for a year? I guess it was Shakespeare who said....."Let me count the ways".

For me...the following occurred.

Blew the right radiator hose...not covered by CPO because it's considered an expendable item....$350; Ate a left front tire when I drove it after it went sort-of flat with a slow nail leak and I drove on tire close to the rim...$325; two oil changes done by myself but still had to buy the oil and filters, crush rings etc....$75 X2= $150 (done by Porsche figure $175 plus for each oil change); replace both rear tires that I got 10K out of before they hit the safety bars (Michelin PS2..315/30/18)...$975; hit the 30K threshold during the year so I did the 30K maintenance (with Loren's help)...plugs, air filter, PIWIS read etc....$220 (saved a good $1000 by DIY); replace accumulator...$110 plus labor=$250; clutch went out at 32K after installing a flash performance (consider this a self inflicted gunshot wound)....clutch $1700, labor $900. I also might add that I drive my car a lot. I've put on almost 20K in the 1.8 years I've had it....but putting on mileage shouldn't have a nexus to breakdowns as long as you're not tracking or subjecting your car to undue stress and strain.

Now granted, when you ask a question like this, a realistic answer can be contingent upon happenstance...i.e. those unforseen anomalies that we all hate to see come up, but it also includes whether your car is hitting one of the major maintenance thresholds like the 30K or 60K maintenance mark, which can be rather expensive. Those are events you can look at in advance and see what they plan on gigging (I mean charging) you for. Then there's inevitably brakes, clutch, and other "routine perishables" like light bulbs, elctrical gremlins (window won't go the last 1/4inch to seal) etc.

Now I'd like to qualify this by saying that for the most part, these cars are rather reliable and can be counted upon to start when you turn the key....BUT, a number of the folks here glaze over some of the costs associated with the annual maintenance. That's not to say that all these things happen, but they did to me...and at least you have a snapshot of what could happen. I like to keep about $3.000 aside for my annual maintenance.

['02996ttx50]

Originally Posted by Mike (La Jolla)

02996ttx50: Read this thread in its entirety:
2nd gear "pop-out" issues? Click here.

Post again when finished and we can discuss. I had the exact issue: used X50 with REV2 violation of indeterminate origin. PAG did not stand behind the product, preferring to blame the driver. The outcome was not good.

The bottom line: You bought a model of used car that sucks. You are probably out the $3-$11k it will cost to fix the defective transmission.

More here:
SOS Ok guys here we go again with the "poppin outta 2nd gear" issue

Here also (sorry for sending you to that other board):
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-warranty.html

im gonna read all this stuff over the weekend and begin to prepare my "war chest" of docs. having been down this road so to speak with PCNA before on a 993 new....im just figuring it's gonna be worst case FIRST, then work my was back from there. also im the THIRD reg owner on this one in spite of gthe LOW mileage and i bought the warranty cos ive been down the pcna road as ive said..before!..

i do NOT trust the dealership at all. i think they get bonused for denying claims regardless of what they say, period..

was told that i can go to Dan @ Speed Gallery in Studio City CA ( does anyone know him or his shop/race team??... whom i DO trust just upon meeting and knowing his racing Rep and some of his guys that i met that all have tricked tt's in fact im gonna eventually mod chip/exhaust/brembos or pccb etc etc's ) this one as i get the dough with them,.. but i wanted to track the car stock first AND see what kind of issues arose ( lucky forward thinking me! etc ) and i THINK? he can actually do the warranty work or so he says, though ive yet to discuss THIS one with him and i've gotta be armed with more anecdotal stuff like you've helped me with BEFORE i let them ( the dealer! ) TOUCH the car. again, this from prior experience. the dealer guy ( whose been mentioned in your thread link!!! ) says, "well, we get paid either way so its no big deal to us, if its PCNA that pays..or you the customer pay".." we just gotta get in there and call it like we see it etc"

and as i mentioned..i think the stage two's ( you had one of UNdetermined?? and so do i..what a coincidence..! ) are faked but i guess thats being paranoid, but i KNOW the stage two happened just before MY purchasing the car..probly a test drive as they had it on the lot for a cpl months...

but..i smell a rat. so..im gonna think this one thru before letting them teardown ANYthing. thx a million for your help..like to hear more of your info etc as you have time? appreciate it very much. cancelling my scheduled dropoff of the car at the dealer on monday. i dont have the 10k lyin around if they try and blank me....which is what i suspect may be their FIRST move!

again..thx for the help, info and lnks!! i'll be back or await any reply..

last thing tho..other than this issue..if this car sucks?! then that makes me a sucker. ha. its a bad bitch stock x 50. im having a blast! 4 months in. its TWICE the 993 i had years ago.. new... just makes me wanna save for the new pdk or better yet! the gt3 ( btw..just drove the sh7t outa an 09 turbo w tip....im waiting on the '10 turbo w pdk..the tip's last year still sucks...

have a great weekend and again..thx

[enoyskt]

Dan is a standup guy at SG, Just talk to him about your concerns

['02996ttx50]

Originally Posted by Mike (La Jolla)

02996ttx50: Read this thread in its entirety:
2nd gear "pop-out" issues? Click here.

Post again when finished and we can discuss. I had the exact issue: used X50 with REV2 violation of indeterminate origin. PAG did not stand behind the product, preferring to blame the driver. The outcome was not good. [size=3]


Here also (sorry for sending you to that other board):
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-warranty.html

thanks for the newer link...that's the stuff i needed. it's shocking to me, and yet, this is the very info i had been hoping for. again, i've never tracked the car,.. i've had it for barely 5k miles, ( barely one fifth of its driven hours! ) and now have exactly the anecdotal evidence i need to preempt their denial, which although i suspect is coming, may now in fact be avoided by my having and "sharing" ( as if that alone will turn the trick! i think not, but..) this info with them. after partial review of the other thread info etc, i do believe your travails as outlined so long ago, will help me outflank them..

and as empathetic as i am to you having had to live thru them, will result in my being able to thwart what i sense already as their "positioning", of this issue as "driver abuse".

i may be new to my 02 tt x50, but i am NOT new to pcna and the kind of &&%% they've attempted to feed me already ( the setup with the stage one - stage two bla bla BS! etc ), from the moment i brought the car in barely a week ago to "discuss/diagnose" this trans issue )..

i now know beyond any shadow of doubt they are WELL aware of this model/year and its propensity for trans failure, and are simply trying to lull me into the eventuality of a pcna denial of coverage...which explains exactlky their demeanor, which is in turn what put me IMMEDIATELY! "on guard" !

..but i think i'll be able to circumvent their time honored "denial/driver abuse position", armed with this. if necessary, this will be my new hobby along with shredding mulholland drive with what is left of my second gear.

it ain't gonna happen....

mike, i owe you a case of something, even though my battle has yet to fully begin. it is on, in earnest.

thx

[ard]

02996ttx50... just found this, actually you added to the '2nd gear thread' and it alerted me.

Your car was most likely abused BEFORE YOU BOUGHT IT. You may actually have bought it with the pop out issue under way.

Did you specifically inspect the car for the signs of this issue when you purchased?

At the end of the day, you might strongly consider offering the mechanic and tech $500 (to split or each!) to make sure it goes your way. PCNA has a very detailed TSB with pictures and a pretty thorough forensic analysis... it will be hard to argue this away 'playing fair'. Indeed, even if they submit a claim, they can get screwed if the Porsche District rep says "I'll stop by to inspect it"...

I know you are gathering your facts... You will argue that they CPOd it, and you've not abused it. So what. You cannot PROVE it... They don't look at the tranny, or even the overrev data in the DME when they CPO it! They just pass on hidden abuise to the next sucker, er, client.

The over-revs are a red herring. The TSB cites driver error (not fully engaging 2nd gear fully before releasing the clutch, or adding a non-porsche SSK) as possible causes. Over-revs while engaged cannot cause this damage.

The problem you have is that once they open it, there is no way to separate abuse from the old owner (or the salesman at the dealership...) from abuse you (or didn't) do! They simply look for specific telltale signs, and if they find them- Game Over.

If you cant find the TSB, PM me your email, I think I have it. Also, there was an interesting thread on a similar issue. http://encore-exotics.com/ 6speed member was liquidcool... Check out his bill for the repair, as a point of reference.

Good luck

['02996ttx50]

Originally Posted by ard

02996ttx50... just found this, actually you added to the '2nd gear thread' and it alerted me.

Your car was most likely abused BEFORE YOU BOUGHT IT. You may actually have bought it with the pop out issue under way.

Did you specifically inspect the car for the signs of this issue when you purchased?

At the end of the day, you might strongly consider offering the mechanic and tech $500 (to split or each!) to make sure it goes your way. PCNA has a very detailed TSB with pictures and a pretty thorough forensic analysis... it will be hard to argue this away 'playing fair'. Indeed, even if they submit a claim, they can get screwed if the Porsche District rep says "I'll stop by to inspect it"...

I know you are gathering your facts... You will argue that they CPOd it, and you've not abused it. So what. You cannot PROVE it... They don't look at the tranny, or even the overrev data in the DME when they CPO it! They just pass on hidden abuise to the next sucker, er, client.

The over-revs are a red herring. The TSB cites driver error (not fully engaging 2nd gear fully before releasing the clutch, or adding a non-porsche SSK) as possible causes. Over-revs while engaged cannot cause this damage.

The problem you have is that once they open it, there is no way to separate abuse from the old owner (or the salesman at the dealership...) from abuse you (or didn't) do! They simply look for specific telltale signs, and if they find them- Game Over.

If you cant find the TSB, PM me your email, I think I have it. Also, there was an interesting thread on a similar issue. http://encore-exotics.com/ 6speed member was liquidcool... Check out his bill for the repair, as a point of reference.

Good luck

yes, thanks. clearly this is what has occurred, and as i was tipped off originally by the service REP's condescending attitude ( you can tell when someone's gonna try and blank ya, before they do..) and his attitude and all else lead me to believe that INDEED, i was being setup for the driver abuse exit. i have several things in my favor which i've outlined along the way here. namely, i was onto them the minute i took the car in, and they began to weave their tale of deception. i actually walked directly into the service bay while the tech ( who is a decent guy, based upon my assessment of humans, in direct opposition the the service REP, who the tech has to answer to, so i knew where this was gonna go..) was in fact looking at the pics onscreen as i walked up and he said "oh, i'm doing the paperwork on your car right now..and he showed me the pix that would be used in an evidentiary way to yay or nay me ultimately..) and this is where it all began..

along with the service reps admission that the TECH "liked me"( yeah, sure right. ok ) ( as i'd had a number of convos with him, had a roller replaced at the time it was "diagnosed" for this trans issue etc, and the rep said...based upon all that you've said, i'm giving you 80/20 odds this will come down in your favor as it's the tech's "call" once you authorize opening it up! but thats $3800 for starters!..add the 5500.00 for 1st and 2nd gears , synchro's etc, and there ya go..

which is what put me on full stop and led me here! and to mike la jolla's nightmare scenario which differs from mine only insofar as he'd had the car longer, tracked it, etc etc.

they BEGAN the pattern of DENIAL from MOMENT ONE! with the stage events etc. which i can prove only one of which ( the lesser stage ONE ) occurred under MY ownership. i bought the car at 27.5k and didn't open it up until i hit 30k, as i've said, i've had three 911's and this one was babied ( EXCEPT for the TEST DRIVES!! ) one of which i know in my GUT produced this stage TWO event, as the timing of it on hours, was prior to my purchase..i can easily prove that.

its all a matter of deductive reasoning, along with knowing the cars, how to drive, PCNA from previous haggling..AND how to fu*&^ng drive.

so, yes, ive copied that previous guys invoice that is in many ways similar to mine. ( they write them up so as to suggest that driver abuse is more than a "probablility".. ) along with all this other VERY compelling anecdotal yet impossible to dismiss "evidence", and i'm gonna begin with the service rep, the tech, as well as begin to hound the OWNER of the dealership, and PCNA from DAY ONE. we shalee see what we shall see. short guys love a fight like this, although i didn't pick it, i'll wage it ( as if i dont have better Sh*T to do, right? )

and as i've said, all this info, and the fact that the PATTERN they employ in their attempt to DENY responsibility was fully in evidence for moment one.

i was referred to the owner of the TWO stores ( theyre big in SoCal terms ) buy a guy bought a cpl ferarris. i told him this was my starter TT. i am gonna buy the '10 tt w pdk, unless?!?..and it was in fact the cheapest car on his lot, as it came from the exotic lot, not the porsche/audi side of his franchise...

i may not be rich, but i get Sh*% done. the fact that they're reading all this Sh*^ doesn't even bother me much. and i know they will be.. the truth is gonna set ONE of us... free.

thx for your input/advice.

['02996ttx50]

PS.. and yes, it occurred to me to "thousand dollar handshake" them but thats risky too...
and no, i didn't have the car independently inspected and it wouldn't have made any difference as they don't open it up, and they would NEVER disclose a known yet intermittent gear popout issue!.. you know and i now know.. as does anyone here that doesnt know any better. you think the "certification" process means something, until you realize it ain't nothin but a checklist of BS.

[ttboost]

Originally Posted by '02996ttx50

PS.. and yes, it occurred to me to "thousand dollar handshake" them but thats risky too...
and no, i didn't have the car independently inspected and it wouldn't have made any difference as they don't open it up, and they would NEVER disclose a known yet intermittent gear popout issue!.. you know and i now know.. as does anyone here that doesnt know any better. you think the "certification" process means something, until you realize it ain't nothin but a checklist of BS.

Actually, if you DID do a PPI, from an independant source, NOT who your buying it from, any tech thats knows Porsches, could have easily found this problem. If they wouldn't let you take it to YOUR mechanic, walk away. This problem has existed for 9 years, people know how to find it, just like you did. No offense, but if you buy a car with "2nd gear popout", it's your own fault.

['02996ttx50]

Originally Posted by ttboost

Actually, if you DID do a PPI, from an independant source, NOT who your buying it from, any tech thats knows Porsches, could have easily found this problem. If they wouldn't let you take it to YOUR mechanic, walk away. This problem has existed for 9 years, people know how to find it, just like you did. No offense, but if you buy a car with "2nd gear popout", it's your own fault.

i couldn't agree more. it didn't occur to me, to do anything other than buy it, which i essentially did the minute i drove it thru malibu canyon.. as the car was owned by a guy who had several exotics ( ferrari's/mas etc etc) and i was comforted by the fact that it had relatively low mileage, AND the fact that the owner of the dealership ( remember, this car was on his lot alongside 15 new 250k ferarri's/mas/ you name its.. etc ) KNEW and KNOWS i'm in a position very soon to come back and get that 09 GT2 that i just an hour ago stared at longingly..( wow, nice ) AND that im bringing with me a few noveaux riche rockstar types that will take a half a mil in cars off him in one afternoon..

so, yeah. is it my "fault" that i bought the car without due dilligence? sure. but will i ALSO get it fixed now under warranty in keeping with the "good faith" aspect of a "certified" car, armed with proof that the "red herring" stage TWO event happened before i bought the car, probably in fact on a test drive while THEY had the car!!.. and that the car was represented to me as being in A1 mechanical condition, coupled with all this supporting info AND the FACT that the OWNER isn't going to want to lose my FUTURE BIZ over a 10k trans warranty issue etc etc.. again, ..yes.

and lastly, i just drove this car thru the freeways up 101 north for a few hours.. and canyons of Malibu, and surrounding canyon roads ( also, it should be noted that CANYON driving, which is exactly the conditions under which my car is driven daliy, are in fact contributing factors it seems relative to this 2nd gear popout issue!, why? i'm not exactly sure, i'm not a tech..) but what i do "know" is, that this car is an incredible piece of work, and i can easily work around this new issue i have discovered with the car, as i am having it resolved BEFORE they tear it down and try and shtup me.

i negotiate stuff for a living, and i'm pretty good at it, most would say. i'm feeling pretty good about the overall outcome, and this even before any "battle" has taken place. i just don't do sh*t half ****ed. which is why i'm lining this stuff up, rather than racin in there and tellin em, "sure, tear it down, then tell me the stage ones and twos are what are responsible for this inherent defect to "suddenly" become manifest".. again, though that's what they were TRYING to establish,.. so not gonna happen..

and btw, i also have an '07 bmw TT 335i, that has had WAY more continuing issues eg fuel pump ot @ 10k miles, rotors squeaking etc etc than this seven yr old 996tt does, or will, for that matter. so. whatcha gonna do. i'd buy this car again...and am really just trying to decide whether or not it's gonna be a new gt2 or gt3 rs, or the 2010 TT w the PDK. they;ll fix my stuff, it's cool. i'm pretty sure they'll "keep my business", but we shall see.

i wouldn't feel so confident, though had i not stumbled in here, and had all this input/info, and as i've said, anecdotal "evidence" that this problem is more widespread that PCNA or my dealer etc, would ever admit. that's big, when it comes to dealing with pcna, which as i say, i've had to do before.

[Mike (La Jolla)]

My bet: You are going to lose this one. The REV2 is a killer. Did the CPI inspector read out the fault codes? Do you have a printout?

['02996ttx50]

Originally Posted by Mike (La Jolla)

My bet: You are going to lose this one. The REV2 is a killer. Did the CPI inspector read out the fault codes? Do you have a printout?

the solutions already revealed itself. once i take care of it i'll reveal how and why it was successful, provided it is, i should say. i'm more confident than ever though now, this'll all end up favorably to me primarily cos of the info you and others have armed me with. remember, you went in cold unarmed and unassuming the worst PLUS you admitted track use etc. whereas in my case, i have just bought the car w/ warranty, recently certified ( for what its dubious worth.. but they have to honor at least the spirit of it, given its THEIRS! ), and perhaps most importantly of all, the rev 2 wasn't while i owned it but just before. documented. i've dealt with pcna so am EXPECTING the worst, and sometime the best defense IS an offense.

i'm not being coy, but i can't ( yet ) detail how i'm dealing with their issue of evasion, obfuscation and warranty denials that we ALL know can be par for THIER course, suffice it to say, i have help now...

and will post a follow up once the situations resolved, in whatever way it is. i'm reasonably certain ppl read this sh*t so, i've said enough already. i mean hell, I could even put together who I am, from these posts esp given the issue and geography. its a small world and boards like this make it even smaller as you know.

thx for your input and advice and the links/leads etc..

[Shark01]

To answer the original question of the thread, over the 43,000 miles I've traveled on my 2001 since the warranty expired, my running costs (excluding oil changes and mods) are at $0.13 per mile. This DOES include tires. Obviously, I'm very pleased.

And I'm still on my first HPFP for my '07 e93 BMW......