OT - Jason,
Long time no see! Where on earth have you been?

Really OT: BTW, I found out the secret of the black plastic ring around the Turbo mirrors and why it's no longer made: Newer generation 997 (at least 2008, don't know about 2007) has a more sophisticated dimmer than 2006: it dims when ambient light goes down, not just from rear headlight. You could identify this by a hole in the back of the rear view mirror. So newer 2008 mirror has not black bead, while old one does and is now discontinued. At least AFAIK.

 

Khoi,

Thanks for the very nice review and for bringing up the point about throttle response. Now that you've pointed it out, it makes sense to me. It's not necessarily a good thing to have an aggressive throttle response all the times.

From your review, GIAC has done an excellent job. The million dollar question is then: how do I know which one is best for me among the many capable companies?

I have not considered this point before. Sigh... one more variable!

 

<!--StartFragment -->Hi bbywu,

I hear your concern and our PIWIS also pulls a CVN on the 996NA the 996 Turbo as well as the 997 NA cars, which its predecessor did not. I have not heard much of <!--StartFragment -->Porsche dealerships preemptively voiding warranties for cars not passing CVN tests. Perhaps we will have an update for our customers and have the only program that passes. We are one of the few that would have the ability to do so. The 997 TT DME is completely different however and the PIWIS does not perform the same test with its current version of software. This is not to say that some day there won't be something similar for the 997 TT DME, but even if there is, it may or may not be an issue with the way that we have structured our programs.

 

Whats the CVN test?

 

hi cannga
sorry to have put even more options on the already very confusing list of possibilities of software upgrades for our car.
unfortunately there is no simple or accurate or objective way to compare them every one of those companies will tell you they are the best!!! and i truly believe they really think they do! by the way hats of to all of them because they are really working hard in the ever more complicated and controlled ecus because porsche is trying hard to prevent them to do so.
i have ask and compared different dyno graphs of APR and GIAC but they are not done on the same scale and GIAC one is shown with the modified exhaust so comparing was difficult altough basicly GIAC seem to pull out around 530 hp max if i extrapolate the graph without the exhaust AT THE WHEELS and 500 torque at 4000 rpm wheras APR seem to produce 530 hp AT THE CRANK and max torque 575 at 4000 rpm again at the crank . the thing to notice too is the overall shape of those dyno curves the APR one is exactely the same as stock under 3000rpm but swells a lot more from there to 5000 rpm especially the torque but tapers of more sharply after that. The GIAC graph on the other hand seems to be shaped exactly like stock but higher on the scale both torque and hp. that corresponds to the seat of the pants feeling i described in my earlier post.
i think the only objective way to compare all those software is to have a shootout of 4 997tt in a magazine (like european car did on the 996 tt some years ago) each one modified only with a ecu reflash with the top 4 companies (GIAC, EVOMS, APR, REVO) in acceleration 1/4 mile and on a rolling dyno THAT would be really cool but i guess some of those companies do not really want us to know the TRUTH right???(this is a teasing for you companies!!!)
khoi

 

I think its the calibration verification number. I hope the experts will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think its the data that is compared from PIWIS to the ECU to determine the last time data was reflashed. I think the error pops up when the numbers don't match.

 

Maybe if I post a pretty picture of the GIAC Flashloader™ Hand-Held, Andrew will give me my dyno charts!

 

Don't apologize, your post is very helfpul! Not many people on this forum have experience with 2 different programs.

One thing I don't understand is that you mentioned APR only has max boost of 1, versus 1.2 for GIAC, yet APR has more torque? I thought torque and power is proportional to boost? I don't know if it's a linear relationship, but I thought more boost = more torque.

If possible, would you please post the 2 curves so I could see more clearly the difference?

OT: I am a noob when it comes to ECU tuning, so I don't know if the following means much of anything: Have of course heard of EVOM, but never APR and REVO. Are those 2 "big time" players in the market? How about Protomotive? It's wonderful to be able to ask questions directly to GIAC (so far my top choice); too bad that EVOM's engineer is not around. I wasn't here to know what happened but is there some kind of ban? Who determines when it will be lifted?

OT: I saw your brief comment about PASM's FIRM setting. I assume you've done something to your suspension already? If not, please give Bilstein PSS10 a consideration. It transforms the Turbo. The thread in my signature has useful information and impression, I think: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...&page=0#449462

 

Hi Cannga,

Hopefully I can chime in here to further enlighten the community regarding the true nature of all the software choices out there.

While on the surface they all may seem similar, making the end user's choice a difficult one, in reality it is not as hard of a choice as it seems when all the marketing hype is stripped away.

There are vast differences among the different "classes" of software out there for our cars.

First, one must differentiate between software that is created using third party tuning programs and software created in the same manner that the OEMs, like Bosch and Siemens, use. This is a very important distinction as the method used to create the end product dictates how thorough, stable, and sophisticated it will perform.

All the "new kids on the block" fall into the third party tuning classification. They are using recently available products that allow them to superficially tweak the performance tables in the ECU to increase power. However, the depth to which these third party programs allow changes to be made is relatively shallow. These tools are basically dumbed down browser-based interfaces that allow end users to manipulate superficial performance tables via graphical representations. These tuning programs started popping up on the market in droves in the last couple years, and are named WinOLS, Optican, Piasini, and Cartech (among others). A company can purchase these programs/tools, hook them up to an ECU, and with a little guidance from whom they bought it from, start playing around with these low level performance tables.

The "OEM type" of interface is via programming tools written and developed by the same company actually doing the performance tuning. This means that the people working at this level can understand and modify in the same language as the people who originally programmed the fuel injection ECU. The level of understanding to work in this native environment is so high that, until the third party programming tools came about, very few people in the automotive performance aftermarket were qualified to go there. Which is why until very recently, there were very few companies offering performance software for German cars.

However, do not confuse one's ability to tune an ECU with the ability to tune it well. These new Windows-based third party translator tuning tools are pale versions of the powerful tools developed by the companies that speak the same native machine language that Bosch does. A German car ECU's operating system relies on very sophisticated command software utilizing functions that cross reference operational conditions and database data on multiple levels. A single 3D graph that represents an engine parameter does not really represent how deeply the ignition timing, or air/fuel ratio, or boost level function that is is representing is accounted for in the actual operation of the engine.

The fact that to this day there remains very few companies that can offer program switching without removing the ECU shows that there is still a vast difference in the actual software out there.

It is actually humorous how some companies are now trying to market their products as "switch-like" in their behavior, even though all that it is doing is using a pre-exiting function found even in the stock program. The knock sensor system on a modern car automatically "switches" between ignition maps when knock is detected, but this is far from actual program switching. As GIAC explained earlier, their race fuel program for the 997TT actually is a collection of boost and ignition profiles that are used depending on knock present, and this group of profiles is not activated unless the "race" button is pushed on the handheld device that plugs into the OBD port. Further, GIAC has cutting edge programs that can be activated but the push of a button, such as their Valet mode which limits the engine to ~50hp, or their security kill that prevents the engine from being started. None of these "new kids on the block" have such options simply because they do not know how to do this type of programming and the third party tuning product they bought does not offer that level of creation.

So, in summary, the very basic difference between such tuning masters as GIAC and the "new kids on the block" is in the way that they interface with what makes your car's ECU tick. GIAC works in the native environment via tools they created, changing any and all tables and how they relate to each other, and the others work in a watered down world that lets them change just so much based on the limited view they are given by the tools they bought.

That's why we choose to partner with GIAC for all our software needs.

 

Todd,

Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed and helpful answer. Please give me a couple of weeks to digest the info, then I'll post more questions as needed.

Thanks to Khoi, I now pay more attention to the issue of throttle response after an ECU mod. Interesting that at the same time as Khoi's post, another user, of the European Sportec ECU mod, mentions something similar (see quote below).

What I don't understand is, isn't a more aggressive throttle response inherent to a power increase?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...&page=0#472544
I have a Sportec stage II on 997 turbo. The car pulls way stronger than without mods both in normal and Sport mode.
The pressure display still showes a maximum 1.0bar in normal mode, and 1.2 in Sport, but it reaches it faster and on a broader rev range.
The only little disappointment is that in Sport mode the car reacts almost exagerately to throttle inputs, and it gets a little complicated dosing the power in turns, and the rev hike in downshifts...
A part this, no reliability issues since a year and 20'000km!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Heh, I know that was a long winded post, but the point is pretty simple.

There are two approaches to ECU tuning on German cars:

Do it like the factory directly in the machine language of the ECU.

Or do it via third party tools, which is inherently less effective due to the dumbing down of the translation from machine language to Windows browser.

No, an aggressive throttle response in not inherent to a more powerful full throttle tune.

However, it is nice that at the push of the Sport button, the "mood" of the car can change. I especially like having a more lazy throttle when doing a daily commute, as it is more relaxing. But I also like being able to go into "banzai" mode when that Gallardo pulls up next to me at the stop light.

I don't find the G.I.A.C. throttle programming to be overly exaggerated in Sport mode, however, as that would interfere with track driving. What the person describes with the Sportec program would not be beneficial in my opinion.

 

I think if I go ahead with an ECU mod, I will come to appreciate the ability to switch back to Stock and therefore this Flashloader system. After my recent change in suspension to Bilstein, I had to arrange an extended drive in a stock Turbo as a "calibrating" drive. To make sure I understand all the subtle changes; sort of a "what have I accomplished" drive.

The Flashloader accomplishes this in a very nice and simple way, a push of a button. I would learn a lot from going back and forth. It's also a confirmation that GIAC has done a good job I guess . And who knows, there might be situations, Los Angeles traffic, where you don't want that much power?

I understand GIAC's more sophisticated way of programming in the machine language of the ECU, versus companies that do this using third party tools. HOWEVER... how does this sophistication translate to ACTUAL benefits to customers? Compare to third-party-tool ECU tune, does/is GIAC ECU tune:

1. Make more power/torque?
2. Safer for engine?
3. Or what? What's in it for me?

Thanks once again for taking the time to explain. I appreciate it.

 

...and here's the dyno results.

 

Hi Clay,

Which program do you have? In your use so far, do you ever feel a situation where you would like to go back to stock program (using the flash loader)? In traffic? Cruising?

Thanks in advance.

 

Hi Cannga,

First, the fact that G.I.A.C. even has button switching is a testament to their ECU tuning dominance. It is a feat that the far majority of ECU tuners in the world are unable to duplicate. 99.9% of them have no switching ability at all, simply because it is beyond their ability to create it.


Second, switching is more than just the ability to go back to stock power levels. With G.I.A.C., you can push a button and access the following power profiles:

A Security mode that will not allow the car to be started, even with the ignition key.

A Valet mode that limits power to around 50hp. Just enough to allow the valet to park the car, but no enough to encourage a joy ride.

A Race Fuel mode that truly takes advantage of higher octane fuel via increased ignition advance and higher boost.


In regards to Race Fuel mode, let's examine that further:

Don't be fooled by ECU tuners claiming their one performance program can self adjust to both pump and race fuel as well or better than a tuner that incorporates switching. That sort of claim is pure marketing hype.

While the built-in fuel injection knock sensing will adjust timing based on octane, it does this by sensing knock. So if the highest ignition map is tuned for 103 octane, the ECU defaults to that map first, and if it senses knock it jumps to a lower map, etc., until the knock is not present. However, if the top map is tuned for 103 octane, and 91 octane is present, there is A LOT of knocking going on until the ECU can jump down to the proper safe map. Knock is potentially damaging to the engine.

Plus, just adapting ignition advance to octane is not the same thing that G.I.A.C. is doing with their Race Fuel program, as stated above. When in G.I.A.C.'s Race mode, more boost and ignition timing are present. All the while, the knock sensing system remains in place, allowing for corrections to timing and also boost in the presence of knock. This is a big distinction to make.

So, G.I.A.C.'s tuning approach is:

• Safer to the engine
• Potentially more powerful depending on which mode is selected
• Vastly more flexible for the user due to the multiple operational profiles available at the touch of a button

And, in reality, G.I.A.C.'s software is much smoother performing vs most of the competition. What a lot of end users do not mention with a lot of software out there is how part throttle can have random hesitations, and full throttle boost is like a roller coaster going up and down. These more subtle characteristics are what you live with everyday, and what can either get on your nerves, or make you ecstatic. A lot of end users are not aware that it is the software responsible for these characteristics. They think it is a sacrifice one makes for more power.

With G.I.A.C., you don't have to sacrifice anything.

Hopefully, G.I.A.C. can find a few minutes in thier busy schedule today to fill in even more technical details about the tools they created and the methods they use to calibrate ECUs.

And for the record, G.I.A.C. is the most widely used aftermarket Porsche software in the world. It may not be the heaviest marketed, but several big name tuners and race teams use G.I.A.C. for their programming needs without revealing the source.

I know that all this information can be confusing, but education is the best approach to getting forum members to understand fully what products they are considering for their Porsche. When it comes to software, just like hardware, there are vast differences.