997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
997 Turbo / GT22004–present Turbo discussion on the current model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo. Sponsored By SharkWerks, Inc
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HC, I guess we have different definitions of what's considered "highly" modified. Relative to stock parts, yes you can consider this "highly" modified since most pipes and couplings have been upgraded, but over all I would disagree. My experience has been from the Supra world, and something like this is considered a little higher than BPU (BASIC performance upgrade), probably BPU+++ tops. There is still A LOT of room to go, pending that everything can hold it. Even if he wasn't going 9's, I still think its crazy that these stock turbos are taking it to the 10s. That's what's getting me excited. Like I've said, I don't think there are many stock turbo cars that have hit numbers like this.
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Heavily modified? The Meth kit (which is probably hurting power btw) is the only mod I would even consider to be in that category. Full exhaust system, air filters , wastegate actuators, intercooler pipes and couplings, BOV and a reflashed ecu? Running 10.80's in a 4000 pound car? With over 100 launches on the car already and now cutting a 1.51 60 foot time this tranny may allow John to run 9's next year with a BPU++++: bolt on turbo kit and an intercooler upgrade.
HC, I guess we have different definitions of what's considered "highly" modified. Relative to stock parts, yes you can consider this "highly" modified since most pipes and couplings have been upgraded, but over all I would disagree. My experience has been from the Supra world, and something like this is considered a little higher than BPU (BASIC performance upgrade), probably BPU+++ tops. There is still A LOT of room to go, pending that everything can hold it. Even if he wasn't going 9's, I still think its crazy that these stock turbos are taking it to the 10s. That's what's getting me excited. Like I've said, I don't think there are many stock turbo cars that have hit numbers like this.
Simply put, we are talking about a 570 hp kit with meth, additional mods and a custom tune that goes above and beyond the base kit by good bit. Add Micky Thompsons and all of a sudden, an increase of 7-10 mph over stock and a ET decrease of .9 isnt spectacular for what you've added. It's great that he's the first, but high tens for a cars with LOTS of mods on it that starts in the mid-high 11's is not a spectacular feat. That's all I'm saying.
Just like adding a 150-200 shot of NOS. It's not a lot of mods, nor heavily modded, but it adds a lot of power, and lowers times sginificantly.
You can find stock turbo 996 TT/GT2's without meth trapping high 120's with simply nothing more than a tune and exhaust and running 11.0 etc. Guys simply choose to do different turbos than risking meth injection which hasnt caught on with the Porsches yet. And Porsches are horrible drag racing cars for high hp applications. In fact, the Porsches and the Nissan are pretty much the only cars with turbos big enough (excluding veyron etc.) to run tens with the stock turbos. So it's not like there are 100 cars that should be able to do this because they have big enough turbos.
I'm not underestimating the effort, but I'm not overestimating it either. I think it's great, but not all that great.
BOTTOM LINE- I havent seen any dyno numbers for the car, but it's obviously making way more than 570 hp. It's weight-power ratio is only that of what it should be for that type of speed around that of a stock Z06 on DR's which have also run 10.7-10.8 with simply DR's added.
So what's the big deal, this is still power to weight.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Heavily modified? The Meth kit (which is probably hurting power btw) is the only mod I would even consider to be in that category. Full exhaust system, air filters , wastegate actuators, intercooler pipes and couplings, BOV and a reflashed ecu? Running 10.80's in a 4000 pound car? With over 100 launches on the car already and now cutting a 1.51 60 foot time this tranny may allow John to run 9's next year with a BPU++++: bolt on turbo kit and an intercooler upgrade.
Since when has a Meth kit hurt the power????
I garauntee you this car is making well over the 570 hp that the kit supplies.
Stock Motor GT500's have been running tens for over a year now. This isnt ground breaking territory.
BTW 10's are relatively easy when compared to 9's and 10.8 isnt close. But maybe a BPU++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
will get the job done like it does on most any other car.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Meth significantly lowers the IAT and EGT to allow more boost without detonation, and also is a significant octane booster. In a 944 turbo water/meth injection has allowed up to mid 20's psi boost on the stock K26 turbo - an insane amount of boost considering the stock turbo on pump gas superheats the intake charge when boosting over 16 psi. In the 996/997 world it has not caught on because it is very easy to get huge power on moderate boost levels
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08 Cayenne TT
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Heavily modified? The Meth kit (which is probably hurting power btw) is the only mod I would even consider to be in that category. Full exhaust system, air filters , wastegate actuators, intercooler pipes and couplings, BOV and a reflashed ecu? Running 10.80's in a 4000 pound car? With over 100 launches on the car already and now cutting a 1.51 60 foot time this tranny may allow John to run 9's next year with a BPU++++: bolt on turbo kit and an intercooler upgrade.
dude, meth injection is like running race gas. A car tuned on meth is like a car tuned on C16, except better because meth cools off the engine. Now that explains how the car ran what it did. I was actually thinking it was a freak car. lol
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I garauntee you this car is making well over the 570 hp that the kit supplies.
BTW 10's are relatively easy when compared to 9's and 10.8 isnt close. But maybe a BPU++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
LOL!!! We call that APU (Advanced.....). I know the "pluses" are fun to add. Yeah this car is definitely pushing mid-600 whp. No where near the 570.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 12-08-2008 at 08:41 AM.
LOL!!! We call that APU (Advanced.....). I know the "pluses" are fun to add. Yeah this car is definitely pushing mid-600 whp. No where near the 570.
well, I'd venture that the 570 kit is without meth tuning. With meth, like you say mid 600's easy. Makes sense, since I have seen meth kits in supercharged mustangs and evo's make easily 20% more power and torque. Even without tuning, I have seen these kits make 20-40 ft-lbs. The stuff works.
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Originally Posted by chrisn
Be careful with those formulas. Hard to argue with the basic concept that trap speed DEPENDS on power and mass (Newton taught us that).
Issue is that the formulas you are using include some baseline/calibration constants and coefficients that make the formula work accurately only for a certain class of cars/conditions.
HC's response:
WRONG, AWD decreases trap speeds as does a better launch. Notice that Johns fastest ET is not his highest trap speed. This is very common. RWD and AWD cars of the same kind will always net higher trap speed in the WRD car due to less weight from the additional components and less non-aero drag.
This is drag racing where powershifts, sometime clutchless are common, no different raping a manual than a GT-R tranny that is planning on breaking anyways if you launch it.
HC: You make my point for me. These formulas have an arbitrary baseline. They don't "know" about the any of the factors you highlight and therefore cannot be relied upon for precise insight into crank HP when comparing different cars with different drivetrains. My point is strengthened by the fact that the OP on this OT sub-topic himself included results from a few different magic formulas, and the results varied quite a bit.
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'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
I was only making simple points that neither AWD or LC increase trap speed, unless, like in the case of the GT-R, the VDC has to be left on which limits power to the wheels.
And a RWD GT-R would still trap faster.
You dont actually mention any formulas, more like factors, and they are imprecise.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Water/Methanol Injection CAN increase power if TUNED for it on a Dyno. I have personally seen over 10 cars with kits LOSE power, and in particular mid range torque with Water/Meth Injection kits before being tuned properly. John's car has not been tuned on a dyno for his kit yet, which is why it is probably hurting his mid range and top end at the moment. With tuning he will no doubt go 133mph+ and probably get down to a 10.5 or so.
You are missing the point (as usual) which is that the car has extensive modifications over an already substantial power gain kit. This car is easily making mid 600's or more so it's not losing power from the Meth. Good reasoning seems to be out of your reach.
Take any turbo car and tune it and you can add 60-70 hp easily, and we all know the GT-R is somewhat underrated, likely up to a little over 500, so you're already looking at near 600 hp. Add the exhaust, intake, EBC, wastegate controllers, etc etc etc, and you should get the point. And you can still increase power with meth to safe levels without a dyno tune, so you are wrong, it is not likely that he's losing power with the meth kit.
The fact is that he's making lots of power and is on drag radials. and a 128 mph trap isnt anything we havent seen, nor a 10.8, even from cars that heavy.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Water/Methanol Injection CAN increase power if TUNED for it on a Dyno. I have personally seen over 10 cars with kits LOSE power, and in particular mid range torque with Water/Meth Injection kits before being tuned properly. John's car has not been tuned on a dyno for his kit yet, which is why it is probably hurting his mid range and top end at the moment. With tuning he will no doubt go 133mph+ and probably get down to a 10.5 or so.
I thought he has a tune, maybe not the best but it is a tuned car.
Im 100% sure that the car isnt loosing power because of the kit, they would have removed it otherwise.
HKS dump and front pipes (delete all catalytic converters)
That is what gives the 570 hp as claimed. The owner has, in addition, a Cobb Tuning accessport, full-exhaust, and methanol injection to give its current output. He also claims its not fully tuned yet. From what I understand, the access-port is a plug-in piggyback flash made for the stock setup for different hp settings (depending on fuel). The access-port does not account for additional mods unless it is tuned to do so. So I guess we will see what numbers are put out after a proper tune.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 12-08-2008 at 02:10 PM.
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