997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
997 Turbo / GT22004–present Turbo discussion on the current model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo. Sponsored By SharkWerks, Inc
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Not sure I agree with you. No system wil make you faster if you are a terrible driver. They will quickly go into aggressive intervention mode if you really screw up. I think the GT-R have a more progressive intervention which can make you faster.
In theory, any drive in any car should be faster with computer controls. We only have one brake pedal, but four brakes. And there is no manual control for the center diff. Nissan just does it better: using the computer to get the most out of the car, and not just keep you safe. Explain to me how that is bad?
I never said either will make you faster. I said one will emphasize mistakes where the other is engineered to cover them up. I'm not talking about wild flailing all over the place, I'm talking about minor infractions.
In theory, yes, cars are faster without controls no matter what they want you to think.
You are saying the same thing I am only you call it better for computer aids to help you be faster. I'd like to know where I messed up and for the computers to slow me down so I can fix it and when it's done right, no computer interferance. This is why Trommel complains of more interaction with PSM than VDC, but he's too clueless to know it.
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__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
You said you drove. No pics, no verification, just a Trommoll in here saying they have tons of time in Porsches and GT-R's. Go figure.
The road course was competitive but not timed? How else are you competing?
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
I think it's a moot point considering the GT-R won't be in any racing series without major changes and we all know the extent of Porsches being raced around the world at all levels.
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Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
I think it's a moot point considering the GT-R won't be in any racing series without major changes and we all know the extent of Porsches being raced around the world at all levels.
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This is why Trommel complains of more interaction with PSM than VDC, but he's too clueless to know it.
I actually said that VDC in R Mode was less intrusive than PSM, particularly so in tighter corners, in my experience. Obviously, never having driven a GT-R, your opinion is worthless.
Re clueless - I think you'll find someone more deserving of that moniker closer to home.
It might be a start for you to actually acknowledge where your points have been addressed and closed rather than ignoring them and moving on to more insults.
The track time was scored by the instructors rather than being based on timing, although that is entirely irrelevant to the facts in hand.
For clarity, the autocross GT-R was actually a LHD US-spec car now I think about it.
As for racing series, the GT-R is clearly a road car and was not designed with a particular FIA category in mind (hence 4WD etc.). The presence of a car in a racing series has absolutely zero relevance to driving one on the road. Saying that, I don't see many Caymans in GT racing either.
15 more pages to go. The most interesting dollop of info on this page is a link to the new 2010 Taurus SHO in the Jalopnik site above
did you not watch the video of the GTR breaking at the track?
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yes, but since these guys keep repeating their crap over and over, so will I. This thread has gotten way to long and no one is going back to catch up.
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The electronic gizmos were designed to save a driver's A$$ when driving on the street. Orginially, they were a safety net, not a Driver's aid.
As the gizmo's developed... Porsche, BMW, and GM with their Corvette, were able to "fine-tune" the electronics, enabling a driver to drive in "competitive mode" (reducing the effect of electronic intervention), which does help the newbe @ the track.
The "flip side" to using these electronic aids is that it allows a newbe to make mistakes and remain on the track, encouaging him to drive faster.
With the power... and handling available when using the gizmos... some drivers far exceed their ability, before the Laws of Physics take the car into the Armco.
Relying on Electronic Gizmo's to correct your mistakes is a crutch, and eventually the crutch will slip... and BOOM... bad things will happen.
In theory, yes, cars are faster without controls no matter what they want you to think.
You are saying the same thing I am only you call it better for computer aids to help you be faster. I'd like to know where I messed up and for the computers to slow me down so I can fix it and when it's done right, no computer interferance. This is why Trommel complains of more interaction with PSM than VDC, but he's too clueless to know it.
HC: We are saying the OPPOSITE I think. I am saying that, in theory, a well designed computer system should make EVERYONE faster-- not just "correct for mistakes. In the real world, I think pro drivers can get a bit more out of a car with traction control off. But this does not prove your point (that computers can only slow you down).
I'm actually not sure if the systems sometimes "gently" intervenes without flashing the dash light. If it always flashed the light, then I am wrong. Someone prob knows the answer for both PSM and VDC.
I would still assert that an optimal computer system individually controlling braking at each corner and adjusting TQ split a hundred times a second should allow any car to get around a corner as fast or faster than the fastest driver. It's just logic: more controls always help, since you don't have to use them.
My point is that I think the GT-R has gotten closer to the goal of having the systems HELP you go faster while not slowing down a really good driver.
In any case, both PSM and VDC (hen in Sport or "R" modes) are already excellent and I think 90%+ of casual track day drivers will leave on and won't find it intrusive.
I know a guy (not F1) who does 2:03/2:04s at Thill (old surface) in a lightly modded 996TT and he leaves PSM on. The 997 systems are even better/less intrusive.
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'07 997TT EVOMS EVT-700
'09 Nissan GT-R (Sold back under Lemon Law)
'06 BMW M5 (E60)
'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
As for racing series, the GT-R is clearly a road car and was not designed with a particular FIA category in mind (hence 4WD etc.). The presence of a car in a racing series has absolutely zero relevance to driving one on the road. Saying that, I don't see many Caymans in GT racing either.
I disagree with that statement from an enthusiast perspective. The Cayman could easily sit on the grid in the SCCA. The GT-R would be uncompetitive.
I have no doubt the GT-R is quicker around a track than the 997 Turbo. It's suspension tuning/handling set-up and aids, gearing, underrated power, etc all point to this.
However, do you believe the sub 7:40 'Ring times were representative of a production-spec car?
__________________
Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
I disagree with that statement from an enthusiast perspective. The Cayman could easily sit on the grid in the SCCA. The GT-R would be uncompetitive.
I have no doubt the GT-R is quicker around a track than the 997 Turbo. It's suspension tuning/handling set-up and aids, gearing, underrated power, etc all point to this.
However, do you believe the sub 7:40 'Ring times were representative of a production-spec car?
The GT-R is faster around the track than a Cayman--- why would it be "uncompetitive." I think a fresh set of tires/pads would be fine for a single race, although consumables would certainly be more per lap than a Cayman-- but you would win the race. Cayman has its own issues that would need to be addresses for serious racing: oil ingestion, power steering overheat, no LSD, sub par suspension/alignment.
Regarding Ring times, the 7:38 lap is what Nissan initially promoted and even refer to it in the owners manual. I really don't have a basis for saying if sub 7:40 would be "representative" of stock car. I guess I don't see why not. 7:38 is easier to believe than 7:29 (which also may be true, but does seem unlikely).
__________________
'07 997TT EVOMS EVT-700
'09 Nissan GT-R (Sold back under Lemon Law)
'06 BMW M5 (E60)
'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
As the gizmo's developed... Porsche, BMW, and GM with their Corvette, were able to "fine-tune" the electronics, enabling a driver to drive in "competitive mode" (reducing the effect of electronic intervention), which does help the newbe @ the track.
The "flip side" to using these electronic aids is that it allows a newbe to make mistakes and remain on the track, encouaging him to drive faster.
Relying on Electronic Gizmo's to correct your mistakes is a crutch, and eventually the crutch will slip... and BOOM... bad things will happen.
Linear Mode
