997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
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Add to that the fact that as you add more traction to the wheels (I.E. slicks), it over-rules AWD's advantage.
I agree with everything except this part. Many race cars on slicks can over power the rear tires. AWD allows earlier power-on delivery for a faster corner exit. This can also mean different lines taken around a particular corner as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker
So now it comes down to the GTR having too much computer aided technology and thus is not engaging enough or fast enough for pro drivers?
Those who think that drivers can drive cars faster without any computer aid are definitely smoking something...
Oh boy.....the extent to which P-car fanbois will go to to defend their pride and joy...
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker
Those who think that drivers can drive cars faster without any computer aid are definitely smoking something...
It is absolutely, entirely dependent upon the tuning/programming, sample rate, processing speed and aggressiveness of the system.
In production car levels, this has been proven over and over again for years by automotive journalists. While skilled, they are not at a pro level either.
__________________
Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
It's simple physics, any computer that inhibits motion by controlling brake and throttle application can only make you slower. You cant add a computer that inhibits and it make you faster unless you couldnt otherwise get around the course, or made that many mistakes. You dont have to be as good as Rohl for the aids to slow you down, even ABS slows you down (if you are using it), but it's better than flat spots on your tires. Look around the country at amatuer DE'rs and racers and see how many of the fastest guys race with electronic aids on. I can promise you wont find many.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
It's simple physics, any computer that inhibits motion by controlling brake and throttle application can only make you slower. You cant add a computer that inhibits and it make you faster unless you couldnt otherwise get around the course, or made that many mistakes. You dont have to be as good as Rohl for the aids to slow you down, even ABS slows you down (if you are using it), but it's better than flat spots on your tires. Look around the country at amatuer DE'rs and racers and see how many of the fastest guys race with electronic aids on. I can promise you wont find many.
I was just using Rohl as an example. I met Alpine recently and he indicated that you are a very good Porsche pilot. I would bet that electonic granny helpers would slow you (HC) down, too. I haven't had my first DE yet, so a GTR would probably make me look great. No matter, I'm a Porsche fanboy from the get-go and my money goes to Stuttgart. Besides, I want a chance to develop any raw talent I may or may not have. That means no help from semi-conductors.
The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
I agree with everything except this part. Many race cars on slicks can over power the rear tires. AWD allows earlier power-on delivery for a faster corner exit. This can also mean different lines taken around a particular corner as well.
The difference is minimal, and the disadvantage is more weight and more drag. Most of the GT cars these days are barely into the 500-600 hp range with thousands of lbs of DF. Not to mention the cornering speeds are much higher, the faster you are traveling, the harder to break the tires loose. If you are on a track with a bunch of slow turns where your DF isnt helping much, then maybe there it's an advantage, but on the highspeed tracks you wont be getting much of anything. from it.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
It's simple physics, any computer that inhibits motion by controlling brake and throttle application can only make you slower. You cant add a computer that inhibits and it make you faster unless you couldnt otherwise get around the course, or made that many mistakes. You dont have to be as good as Rohl for the aids to slow you down, even ABS slows you down (if you are using it), but it's better than flat spots on your tires. Look around the country at amatuer DE'rs and racers and see how many of the fastest guys race with electronic aids on. I can promise you wont find many.
Agree that it is all about physics.
Also agree that, on most (all?) street cars, current stability systems make pro drivers slower.
My point (which has not been refuted at all) is simple and perfectly logical:
1. Computers can control MORE actions FASTER than any human-- and can do it simultaneously without losing focus. Easy example is brakes. Cars have four brakes, but one pedal. And there is generally no human input for things like brake bias or TQ split side to side or front/back.
2. In all systems, (all things being equal) the ability to control more variables cannot yield a worse optimal solution versus fewer controls.
3. Technology being what it is (see, e.g, Moore's Law), it is just a matter of time before this situation will yield cars that no human can drive faster with the assist turned off.
4. We are already at #3 with some cars (perhaps the GT-R? I don't know for sure) and some drivers.
You logic that any system that pulls throttle or applies brake cannot make you faster is just false. On throttle, you may have a point, but again my Exhibit A is that TC makes F1 drivers faster because they can safely and aggressively get the most power to the ground under a variety of changing conditions with less worry of oversteer.
On the brakes, you're just dead wrong. A well tuned system can gently intervene to give you a touch of braking on the correct wheel to keep you on line in a situation that would otherwise be "too fast" to make the corner without drifting and correcting (which would slow you down).
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
I actually agree with all of that. Good real-world advice, despite the hypothetical debate above.
Also agree that, on most (all?) street cars, current stability systems make pro drivers slower.
My point (which has not been refuted at all) is simple and perfectly logical:
1. Computers can control MORE actions FASTER than any human-- and can do it simultaneously without losing focus. Easy example is brakes. Cars have four brakes, but one pedal. And there is generally no human input for things like brake bias or TQ split side to side or front/back.
2. In all systems, (all things being equal) the ability to control more variables cannot yield a worse optimal solution versus fewer controls.
3. Technology being what it is (see, e.g, Moore's Law), it is just a matter of time before this situation will yield cars that no human can drive faster with the assist turned off.
4. We are already at #3 with some cars (perhaps the GT-R? I don't know for sure) and some drivers.
You logic that any system that pulls throttle or applies brake cannot make you faster is just false. On throttle, you may have a point, but again my Exhibit A is that TC makes F1 drivers faster because they can safely and aggressively get the most power to the ground under a variety of changing conditions with less worry of oversteer.Wrong, a driver will always be potentially faster without aids that cant do anything but "prevent" certain perameters. Maybe more consistent. But a "perfect" pole lap in a car without TC will always be faster than one in which any electronic aids are flashing and cutting power and hitting brakes. That's what makes racing more interesting. To go faster = more risk of mistake. F1 is still faster than it was last year, but still far more exciting because it's about the drivers concentration, not computers preventing mistakes.
On the brakes, you're just dead wrong. A well tuned system can gently intervene to give you a touch of braking on the correct wheel to keep you on line in a situation that would otherwise be "too fast" to make the corner without drifting and correcting (which would slow you down). How am I wrong in saying that ABS CAN make you slower, it is nothing but a crutch for mistakes. And all you just explained is ABS covering for a mistake. You already entered the corner too fast if you're riding the abs. PERIOD.
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
LSD is sufficient for tq delivery and has been getting the job done for decades. All the electronic gadgets arent neccessary.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
The Nannies will slow you down, but learning with them helps make you a better driver. Learning with the nannies helps you to understand how the engineers intended for the car to handle for the masses. Then you start learning car control and you step outside of the limits they set on the car not only for all drivers including those not so talented, but for legal reasons. When that happens you turn the TC off, turn back how hard you are driving by a 1/10th or two for a while, you'll slow down initially, but better that than get over your head.
Know which parts on which tracks you can let it all hang out, and test it all in those areas. And by all means, get your car checked out on a regular basis after tracking (meaning suspension etc.)
So now it comes down to the GTR having too much computer aided technology and thus is not engaging enough or fast enough for pro drivers?
Those who think that drivers can drive cars faster without any computer aid are definitely smoking something...
Oh boy.....the extent to which P-car fanbois will go to to defend their pride and joy...
Not as much much smoke as those that think a 3850lbs 480hp Nissan GTR can lap the Nurburgring as fast as the far ligter and more powerful CGT, Enzo, ZR1, and CCX.
The difference is minimal, and the disadvantage is more weight and more drag. Most of the GT cars these days are barely into the 500-600 hp range with thousands of lbs of DF. Not to mention the cornering speeds are much higher, the faster you are traveling, the harder to break the tires loose. If you are on a track with a bunch of slow turns where your DF isnt helping much, then maybe there it's an advantage, but on the highspeed tracks you wont be getting much of anything. from it.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisn
Even if you reject the above, you haven't rebutted the advantage of selective TQ delivery. How can it be bad to put down exactly as much TQ as each tire can handle at that instant?
Finally, although I agree that the above is a bit theoretical, I think that we will be in that world soon-- and the GT-R my be a preview of that world.
That's the problem, and the debate. No one can modulate slowing 4 different wheels simultaneously and conversely, no one can modulate 4 different wheels applying power, either.
The faster the production car, the more R&D required to tune the AWD to that edge.
So therefore, it's a driver's aid that increases complexity, expense, weight and since it's not a safety factor (brakes) but a go-faster factor, is it necessary? And, it isn't allowed in racing, either.
__________________
Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
Not as much much smoke as those that think a 3850lbs 480hp Nissan GTR can lap the Nurburgring as fast as the far ligter and more powerful CGT, Enzo, ZR1, and CCX.
Go read and watch some reviews and maybe you'll get it, its been said many times, GTR brakes very late and gets on accelerator much earlier out of corners due to smart AWD, it has high gearing so it accelerates like a bat out of cave. All the other supercars with RWD and much more power cant do that due to them loosing traction, they need to modulate their gas pedal, where GTR gets and splits all the traction it needs. Its well balanced car, it was designed on the ring. watch some interviews with the developer of GTR and maybe you'll get it, i clearly see how this car can take corners much better then lighter supercars. Okaaaay maybeeee it ran lil more boost so what it is slightly heavier lol
Besides, I want a chance to develop any raw talent I may or may not have. That means no help from semi-conductors.
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