997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
997 Turbo / GT22004–present Turbo discussion on the current model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo. Sponsored By SharkWerks, Inc
Welcome to 6SpeedOnline.com!
Welcome to 6SpeedOnline.com.
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, join 6SpeedOnline.com today!
FYI - if you are really in good with your NISSAN TECH MANAGERS you will discover that there are now 26 cases nationwide on the Tranny Issues. I didn't say failed and i didn't say no warranty. I am saying there are 26 cases involving the tranny and I do not mean for noise or solenoids. I mean problems with the tranny. I know the GT-R fanclub over at Nagtroc refuses to believe there are more than 2 after they have been told more than that. They just want to blame the drivers abusing it and they deserve what they get.
No saying you are wrong, but what's your source? I Spoke with NNA last week and they said they had denied one claim and were look at "a couple" similar cases. Person I was speaking with was a low-level CSR, although the GT-R Specialist. She said NNA would be making an official statement next week to all owners (including me) who asked "So what is the real deal here?"
I did three LCs and did not find it that thrilling of an experience. The 1-2 and 2-3 shifts are just as impressive from a less violent start. I assume most folks with manuals don't make a habit of dong clutch-drop starts at 5K unless they are drag racers and have the budget to fix what will inevitably break.
At the same time, I think it's bogus to not have clear guidance on the LC issue. Is 5 too much? 15? 50?
This ad is not displayed to registered and logged-in members. Register your free account today and become a member on 6SpeedOnline!
__________________
'07 997TT EVOMS EVT-700
'09 Nissan GT-R (Sold back under Lemon Law)
'06 BMW M5 (E60)
'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
Dude, these are WOT straights. No skill required. There is much to the GT-R story that is subject to debate, but I don't think my data or the inherent superiority of dual clutch is one of them. You are losing credibility here.
I fully acknowledge that I do not get the most out of my cars in the turns. Who here does? But this data is from straights. Tires don't matter, driver doesn't matter. Just look at the slopes of the lines. They indicate in-gear acceleration. Then look at the shift points in the TT and absence of them in the GT-R.
I included the chart from most of the lap. just look at the straights (steep slopes up). Story in consistent. Stock GT-R is very closely matched (on straights) to the 610HP 997 TT-- mostly due to faster shifting.
Chris, I'm trying to explain to you how this isnt the concrete data that you want it to be.
- You were driving a car you're admittedly scared of even now and that on other tracks you've gotten speeds on straight slower than a stock 997 TT could do. And this was last year when you were probably even more scared of the TT.
- Like swamp says, over a while straight there is no way the shifting should be that slow. That's some of the slowest shifting I've ever seen.
- Your first time at said track when you were in the TT.
- You take any random lap from different track days, in different conditions, with different experience levels. That's not even consistent for one driver.
-This isnt good data at all, no speeds on the graph or anything, two shifts in the TT and only one in the GT-R???? Were you short shifting??
I'm sure you have access to the real stuff, so at least try not to leave out EVERYTHING that would make the data substantial, not that it would really be anyways.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
See Evo and Car magazine for details.
Last edited by heavychevy; 10-26-2008 at 12:46 PM.
I was joking on the R^2. I was saying I was confident in my statement that modeling DCT would improve your model.
In terms of in-gear acceleration, I 100% agree with you--- that data in in my charts (reflected as the slopes of the in-gear parts of graph).
In terms of shifting speed, for sure I can improve (especially heel-toe and shifting while "busy"), but I have a few thousand miles on track and don't think I suck in a statistically significant sense (at least not for WOT shifts on the straights).
Why do you think Porsche claims an 8 second advantage (on the Ring) for their PDK? What does your model say if you put in the stats for the 911.2 C2S (stick), then shave 8 secs of the lap. How much extra HP does that imply?
8 seconds over 13 miles on stickier tires with more hp.
NOT JUST PDK.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
(start of short off topic material) I think the fact that there are over 80 pages of predominately 911 Turbo owners defending the performance of their cars against a manufacturer that is better known for making economy cars, pick-ups, and minivans is a true testament that Nissan succeeded with the GT-R. I mean come on, even if you never use the launch control you still have a great car with fantastic performance (handling, not acceleration being the most impressive) for half the price. The car is a success whether the members here admit it or not.
As a former multi-Porsche GT3, 911 Turbo, Ferrari, and current Lamborghini owner, I couldn't be more happy with my GT-R I'll just keep on running up the miles on it while everyone else argues if it has a faulty transmission or if Nissan cheated when they brought the car to the "Ring. (end of short off topic material)
__________________
CLK63 AMG Black Series
Challenge Stradale
Murcielago
- You were driving a car you're admittedly scared of even now and that on other tracks you've gotten speeds on straight slower than a stock 997 TT could do. And this was last year when you were probably even more scared of the TT.
- Like swamp says, over a while straight there is no way the shifting should be that slow. That's some of the slowest shifting I've ever seen.
- Your first time at said track when you were in the TT.
- You take any random lap from different track days, in different conditions, with different experience levels. That's not even consistent for one driver.
-This isnt good data at all, no speeds on the graph or anything, two shifts in the TT and only one in the GT-R???? Were you short shifting??
I'm sure you have access to the real stuff, so at least try not to leave out EVERYTHING that would make the data substantial, not that it would really be anyways.
I'm not scared to drive fast in straight line.
All shifts were WOT.
Same # of shifts-- you just can't see them in GT-R
Slowest shifter ever? Thanks for the ad hominem, but how would you know? This is speed over distance, not over time. Shows how fast each car was going at same point on track.
I'll post the full graph and also pull the data into Excel to make my point more clearly. I also have GPS data from F1crazydriver. I will compare his shift times to mine (I assume faster, but I assume doesn't make a big diff).
-Chris
__________________
'07 997TT EVOMS EVT-700
'09 Nissan GT-R (Sold back under Lemon Law)
'06 BMW M5 (E60)
'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
Same # of shifts-- you just can't see them in GT-R
Slowest shifter ever? Thanks for the ad hominem, but how would you know? This is speed over distance, not over time. Shows how fast each car was going at same point on track.
I'll post the full graph and also pull the data into Excel to make my point more clearly. I also have GPS data from F1crazydriver. I will compare his shift times to mine (I assume faster, but I assume doesn't make a big diff).
-Chris
Actually I can see the 1 shift in the GT-R. And shifts are more pronounced the faster you go because the subsequent loss in momentum has a greater effect. There is definitely a 2-1 shift on that straight.
When I learn to print the screen I can show you several cars that arent nearly that slow shifting especially in the lower gears. Including many of my own and cars that would actually lose that power from not being in the powerband do to low torque/hp and low(long) gearing). These are redily available at traqmate.com.
Please post all of the data with F1crazydriver so we can see it.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
No sure about tires (it says sport tires)--- I assume the same (unless Porsche is taking page from Nissan's book ;-) )
I would have assumed that too if it were not for them not putting much detail into the tires. "sport tyres"??? Porsche has some sneaky advertising too (PCCB, PSM, Curbweight just to name a few) that they put extra emphasis on selling and dont meet expectations.
They clearly state sport tires on the PDK and nothing for the other cars which I'm certain they would have mentioned to make sure the PDK got all the credit.
Until it's stated for sure that the other cars had a special tire, then it cant be assumed. I personally doubt the PDK could do a 7:50 on anything less that sport cups, so that's my assumption.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Actually I can see the 1 shift in the GT-R. And shifts are more pronounced the faster you go because the subsequent loss in momentum has a greater effect. There is definitely a 2-1 shift on that straight.
When I learn to print the screen I can show you several cars that arent nearly that slow shifting especially in the lower gears. Including many of my own and cars that would actually lose that power from not being in the powerband do to low torque/hp and low(long) gearing). These are redily available at traqmate.com.
Please post all of the data with F1crazydriver so we can see it.
It's good to have this Sunday chat with you, HC.
OK. So I went back and compared my shift times with F1's (let's use him as the "good driver" versus ChrisN as the "scared driver"). We're about the same. 3-->4 shifts on main straight (checked three laps for each of us) were within 150 MS of each other. I basically measured total "time off the power," so this was the full shift cycle and it (for both of us) was in the 1.10 to 1.30 second range.
HC: your eyes must be better than my GPS data, because you simply cannot see the GT-R shifts in the data. They are lost in the noise. Maybe if my GPS box were attached more firmly, you could se a bump. See my large-screen captures of the TraqMate output, below.
Unfort, F1 supplied me data in "Race Mode" which won't overlay with my data-- so I did two charts. Note the scale on the bottom (MPH) is diff (but G scale is the same). Note also that these are over TIME not DISTANCE, so it is hard to compare turn-by-turn, but I marked the main straight for reference.
I thought that initial hump on the front straight may have been a shift since it's not consistent on all the graphs, I dont know the gearing, but that first interuption in accel looked like a shift to me. I could be wrong.
What's good to see is a 480 hp TT on 300 treadware tires going faster than the GT-R if you look at the time at the bottom of the mph/time graph you can see the cars about equal for the lap until the later stages when he starts getting to the braking an accel zones before you.
It's also appearant that his 480 hp 996 TT is just as fast on the straight. If he didnt shift or lift towards the end (could have been traffic) he could have easily gotten the 3 mph difference prior to the braking zone on the front straight. And that's without the help of a DSG, just shifting old fashined style. Combine that with the fact that he ran prior to repave which nearly everyone is claiming 2 seconds and he's about 4 seconds faster.
No sport cups
No 600 hp
No DSG
And the 600 hp TT on r comps isnt supposed to be faster? If anything this should be proof to you how much power you ARENT using. And we arent comparing you to a pro, just an advanced DE driver which is what you claim to be.
And hopefully this disproves your theory pretty soundly.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
See Evo and Car magazine for details.
Last edited by heavychevy; 10-26-2008 at 04:06 PM.
But like I've said before you only made the car harder to drive for your skill level with the mods you put on it. The 997 TT has more than enough acceleration for it's handling capabilities, and when you add 30% more power without really upgrading the cars handling, you make the car even scarier than the stock power you were scared of.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
My point in prior post was to show the advantage of dual clutch (tires don't matter; driver doesn't matter-- unless he shifts super slow, which apparently I don't). I have now proved my point to all other than HC.
I am not saying I am particularly fast around the track, or get the most of any car I have ever driven. F1 is faster in a lesser car. So what? I'm still learning. Nonetheless, I thought I would share this.
I did this a while back. I tried to manually overlay my 997TT (700 EVT with 100 Octane) over F1 in 996TT and me in GT-R (stock).
Not sure what it proves, other than the 997 ETV is wicked fast on the straights (~142mph GPS speed terminal velocity), but thought I would throw in the mix just to prove to HC that I know how to floor it on the straights. Also shows my shifts time realtive to F1's. Note this chart is by DISTANCE so the corners line of better.
Note: I am faster in the 997TT with More HP than the 996 with less HP. I still don't understand HC's biazarro-world logic that >HP equal < speed.
My prior comments (1000 posts ago) was that the 997TT (for me) was harder to learn to drive than the Cayman or the GT-R. Why harder? Fear. Does that make me a girly-man?
I'll just keep on running up the miles on it while everyone else argues if it has a faulty transmission or if Nissan cheated when they brought the car to the "Ring. (end of short off topic material)
Linear Mode
