997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
997 Turbo / GT22004–present Turbo discussion on the current model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo. Sponsored By SharkWerks, Inc
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Ouch. Didn't know you could glue rice on top of rice.
I wish they sold a GT-R "body kit" that replaces the production panels with the "camo" ones from testing. I prefer the smoother lines of the G35/37.
The way I rationalize driving around in such an ugly car is that the looks are like a label that signals that the contents are pretty special. If the car didn't beat a stock 997TT (note to HC: Stock=Stock, no asterisks) in every traditional performance measurement (according to the overwhelming consensus view), I would find it harder to deal with the ugliness...
What is actually happening is, we are beginning to see the GTR get beat in every traditional performance measure in the real world, as those who purchase the stock version off the showroom floor begin to get beat out in the real world, as Mizunos video shows, for example. If you want us to believe the GTR is such a great car, it is going to have to start beating the traditional winners in real world events such as the 24 hours of Nurburgring. If the GTR starts winning in real world, sanctioned events like that, it will begin to convince us of it's greatness. Until then, it is no more than an unknown entity.
What is actually happening is, we are beginning to see the GTR get beat in every traditional performance measure in the real world, as those who purchase the stock version off the showroom floor begin to get beat out in the real world, as Mizunos video shows, for example. If you want us to believe the GTR is such a great car, it is going to have to start beating the traditional winners in real world events such as the 24 hours of Nurburgring. If the GTR starts winning in real world, sanctioned events like that, it will begin to convince us of it's greatness. Until then, it is no more than an unknown entity.
Huh? Now I'm really confused. I must have missed all the videos of the stock 997TT beating a stock GT-R at anything other than perhaps in-gear straight-line high-speed acceleration. Please repost the videos of stock 997TT beating it around any track in any fair comparo.
Thought we were talking about stock 997TT v. stock GT-R. If you want to talk about Porsche race-prepped cars that happen to share some common chassis parts with the road car, that is a whole other world (a world where Porsche has dominated for decades). Why is that relevant?
Are people here really buying cars based on their race-car cousins? If so, why? I buy things based on the actual item delivered in exchange for my cash.
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'07 997TT EVOMS EVT-700
'09 Nissan GT-R (Sold back under Lemon Law)
'06 BMW M5 (E60)
'06 Civic Hybrid
'08 Acura MDX
What's even more pathetic is, you could pick up a GTR and waste that extra $20k on a spare tranny right after you experience your first 0 - 60 in 3.3s
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Huh? Now I'm really confused. I must have missed all the videos of the stock 997TT beating a stock GT-R at anything other than perhaps in-gear straight-line high-speed acceleration. Please repost the videos of stock 997TT beating it around any track in any fair comparo.
Thought we were talking about stock 997TT v. stock GT-R. If you want to talk about Porsche race-prepped cars that happen to share some common chassis parts with the road car, that is a whole other world (a world where Porsche has dominated for decades). Why is that relevant?
Are people here really buying cars based on their race-car cousins? If so, why? I buy things based on the actual item delivered in exchange for my cash.
Please tell me what is more fair than sanctioned, professionally timed, international racing. Bring those suckers to the ring, race 'em under the same rules every one else has to, under scruitinizing eyes. Start winning something like that consistently, and we will be convinced. very simple, actually.
A sanctioned race is like a well controlled drug trial. All variables are held as constant as possible, some people take drug "A" and some take drug "B". The one that makes you better, especially after several trials, is the one that gets sold. Good research takes time, and it needs to be replicated. This has not been done with the GTR yet. Many different Porsche models have done well under this kind off scruitiny over the course of 60 years. Nothing like this has occured with the GTR yet. Until it does, it is an unknown entity as I said before. To be fair, this sort of scruitiny takes time, but if the GTR wants to be the real "King of the Hill", it will have to prove itself that way. Until then, it is too early to tell. Just as it is too early to tell with the ZR1 and ACR. The Z06, for example, has proven it's self this way also.
We do have an example of a video with a GTR losing a track race to a GT3 and a GT2. I believe it was Mizuno who drew our attention to the short race in which the GTR has some sort of malfunction and "fails", and loses the race to the two Porsches as well as a few other cars that I don't remember the make of. Now, you could say that when the GTR was running, it was faster than the two Porsches. But I could just as well say that no, the truth is, the GTR could not stand up to they type of rigor it takes to beat a GT2 in a lap race. Really not much evidence either way. HC has made the good argument that there is as of yet no good evidence to suggest that the GTR is a better performer than the 997TT, pointing out that Nissan has probably used ringers, car journalists do not neccesarily make great drivers, rear engined Porsches take much practice to master, why doesn't Nissan show us telemetry, etc. A good way to settle this would be to, for example, randomly purchase a GTR and a 997TT off the show room floor, have Rohl drive the 997TT and Suzuki drive the GTR, and have a little 10 lap race on the 'ring. However, just as one sparrow does not make a summer, one victory does not indicate a winner. It is sort of like a play-off. You need to do this several times. Now, in reality, this isn't going to happen. The next best thing is to establish a racing record. My point is, it takes time, and certainly better controlled conditions than we have had so far to establish who is the better performer.
HC has made the good argument that there is as of yet no good evidence to suggest that the GTR is a better performer than the 997TT, pointing out that Nissan has probably used ringers, car journalists do not neccesarily make great drivers, rear engined Porsches take much practice to master, why doesn't Nissan show us telemetry, etc. A good way to settle this would be to, for example, randomly purchase a GTR and a 997TT off the show room floor, have Rohl drive the 997TT and Suzuki drive the GTR, and have a little 10 lap race on the 'ring.
What absolute nonsense.
Why not accept that right now, a standard GT-R is a better car than a standard Turbo and just sit back and wait for the next-generation PDK, direct-injection Turbo which will no doubt be faster/better/whatever than the GT-R?
I can only conclude that some Porsche fans don't really like cars, they just like the badge on the front of their Porsches.
The GT-R is NOT a better car, I think that's been covered already. Need we go through that again?
For the small % of people that can afford to buy and track the GT-R (which is no small feat), they'll have a CHANCE of beating the TT on the track which is only a fraction of the time you'll be in the car. The other 95+% other than getting a months worth of groceries for a family of 4 suggest the TT is WITHOUT A DOUBT the better car.
The GT-R is a one trick pony. FWIW it was a two trick pony, but one trick voids the warranty. The TT is still the best all around luxury car on the market. Still two different leagues of car. And still the Porsche is the better car.
And what little advantage the GT-R may percievably have will be undoubtedly wiped out with the new iteration.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Interesting post, now that reality has set in. The funny thing is that unless you want to fry the transmission, AND the warranty, that mid 3 sec. 0-60 time has now been invalidated.
1) Financial Burden or Boredom with an Automatic car
2) Fear of high maintenance costs and warranty being declined.
2) Trying to make a quick buck (those days are pretty much done with)
The GTR has always been a great car around the world.. Nissan really dropped the ball on it though this time around.. They made a great car, but it seems all they cared about was 0-60 numbers and Ring times.. They forgot that these cars were going into the hands of "average Joe" consumers and made the car way to delicate. I think because of this most people get the car expecting it to be as cool as the R33-34 and then just get disappointed and sell the car.
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Can
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I can only conclude that some Porsche fans don't really like cars, they just like the badge on the front of their Porsches.
well Z07, I would say the opposite is true. Look at the facts
1)2 months after launch, GTR's are sitting on dealer lots in the US. There is no sellout for this "supercar." At half the price of a 997tt, there should be lines out the door for this car if it were the real deal.
2)GTR owners are dumping the car due to fears of maintenance costs and warranty issues. Sounds like fair weather fans to me.
3)no small amount of "true driving enthusiasts" have bought their GTR's and launch them repeatedly into failure like monkeys poking forks into electrical outlets.
4)almost every other post on Nag is over how fast the car can do 0-60 without launch control. Every "track event" mentioned is a 1/4 mile drag race. The obsession is amazing. Like a bunch of kids talking about video game high scores. But wait, these are people who really like cars correct?
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