997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating.
997 Turbo / GT22004–present Turbo discussion on the current model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo. Sponsored By SharkWerks, Inc
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HC: There have been a dozen or so comparos with the 997TT and GT-R in them. Which ones do you agree with, exactly? I don't recall you agreeing with any article showing the GT-R to be faster around the track than the 997TT.
Wouldn't it be odd / require an elaborate conspiracy if ALL the comparo articles were flawed?
Could there be another explanation? Perhaps your unwillingness to internalize data that conflicts with your strongly-held bias?
I, and I think others, do not reject the data that is unfavorable to the GT-R. We consider it in the overall mix. You alone seem to be obsessed with finding fault with virtually any test/factoid that shows the GT-R to be faster.
The GT-R is not necessarily "better" (that's amorphous/subjective). Stock for stock, it just happens to be faster than the 997TT around the track. Am I wrong here? No one seems to be confronting the core issue here.
Protestations that these are not track cars are silly (even though they're not pure track cars of course), since obviously people don't buy the 997TT (or GT-R) to just be cushy cruisers. An AMG or M5 would be better suited for that.
I dont know which ones I agree with, I just know the ones that I dont, and most of them are listed here. With the reasons, use the search function.
Actually you are wrong, VERY WRONG, the vast majority of people do buy TT's and GT-R's to be DD's and cruisers. There are other (faster) options in various income brackets for than bmw and amg's. I can assure you not even all ACR's, WHICH IS CERTAINLY A TRACK CAR, will even be tracked, probably still more than not will be cruiser vehicles. Same goes for the Z06, Ford GT, ZR-1 and every other car outside of a cup car. Reading too many magazines to see the truth eh? You really make some bold assumptions, I'd spend more time at the track if I were you before making those assertions.
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__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
Hmm, let me see. IT'S A COMPLETELY NEW PLATFORM THAT JUST CAME OUT! For what it's worth, Nissan has never acknowledged launch control.....it was the media that figured out the sequence that would "engage" it and advertised the times, otherwise there would have been a LC mode! Since when can you compare an auto with decades of development to a DSG gearbox? I'm starting to believe that you just have selective reasoning. You have a rebuttal and a ridiculous excuse for EVERYTHING, well at least the negative stuff that you're arguing about, which is something none of us have really contested. Never seen anyone so relentless in my life. We get it, you don't like the car, but not once have you acknowledged anything positive about it so don't act like any argument you make about it is fair. This might be a Porsche forum, but I can guarantee you that most members are open-minded enough to think there are other capable cars out there including this one.
The point is that Nissan knew it would break and didnt take the time to develope it till it worked. Porsche had similar issues, or the 997 TT would have been released with PDK several years ago. But everyone isnt hell bent on winning a mag comparo. Some are more concerned with building a great car that you can depend on getting what is advertised.
Nissan hasnt develooped the DSG for decades, and the limits of the DSG were known well before any GT-R came into existence. The Bugatti shattered those perceptions with a DSG that's REALLY developed. Nissan took one and stuck it in there, and enabled the LC feature to dupe customers and win the mag tests. It's so very obvious.
I know there are other capable cars, and have never once said the GT-R isnt one of them, EVER. You are back to making asinine assumptions based on your perception and not reading carefully. I clearly state my problems and nothing more or less. But I'm not repeating them because you didnt read my posts carefully enough.
You cant garauntee me anything, because you are guessing that everyone thinks like you. I dont need validation for my opinion, nor do I seek it.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
well there's already 2 tuners working on stronger internals which will work with LC as many times as you like. Pretty cool if you ask me!
And its pretty lame to talk to the heavycheavy coz the guy just never gives up, his mind cannot accept anything but his own arguments.
The tuners are all having difficulty making the thing stronger withing the comfined space. Nissan could always swap their weak box for the super strong Veyron. My guess is that this wont happen any time soon.
well there's already 2 tuners working on stronger internals which will work with LC as many times as you like. Pretty cool if you ask me!
And its pretty lame to talk to the heavycheavy coz the guy just never gives up, his mind cannot accept anything but his own arguments.
Upgrade costs more than halfa new tranny, and you still have a weak clutch that cant support much more power.
And still warranty void is anything goes wrong that's connected to any of that. I doubt the tuners will want to warranty a 20k tranny either so you risk ending up being out 30k.
Pretty lame being a troll and complaining about being called on it too.
__________________ The GT-R is harder to drift than a 997 TT or 997 GT3, therefore if you are trying to drift, the GT-R will consequently get a faster lap. Normal apexing and driving not included.
The point is that Nissan knew it would break and didnt take the time to develope it till it worked. Porsche had similar issues, or the 997 TT would have been released with PDK several years ago. But everyone isnt hell bent on winning a mag comparo. Some are more concerned with building a great car that you can depend on getting what is advertised.
Nissan hasnt develooped the DSG for decades, and the limits of the DSG were known well before any GT-R came into existence. The Bugatti shattered those perceptions with a DSG that's REALLY developed. Nissan took one and stuck it in there, and enabled the LC feature to dupe customers and win the mag tests. It's so very obvious.
I know there are other capable cars, and have never once said the GT-R isnt one of them, EVER. You are back to making asinine assumptions based on your perception and not reading carefully. I clearly state my problems and nothing more or less. But I'm not repeating them because you didnt read my posts carefully enough.
You cant garauntee me anything, because you are guessing that everyone thinks like you. I dont need validation for my opinion, nor do I seek it.
...The Bugatti is a million dollar car with a transmission that cost more than a GT-R. Of course its gonna be well developed and better engineered. I don't know why they are even being compared as a Bugatti-type trans is way beyond budget constraints. I can understand your frustrations with Nissan's way of marketing this car (kind of like a slick talking politician) because I feel the same way about it. It's a capable car with a LOT OF FINE PRINT AND STRINGS ATTACHED TO IT. They keep hush hush about the "LC function" when mags continue to use it implying to customers that it's ok. They prefer the car to be left completely stock and modifying it is taking a chance; weak trans, plasma lined cylinders. Alot of this keep the fun out of owning a car, but what do you expect when you pay 70 large to get one? Bottom line is that you can't expect to get a car with Porsche Turbo-like reliability and support for half the price. It almost makes the Porsche seem like it's worth the money to save the headaches from owning a GT-R. The only gripe I have with you is your disagreement with real-world performance and track numbers quoted by real people (almost implying them as liars) when it is compared against other stock cars.
When run stock for stock (key phrase) many people and nearly all the media has reported the car as being quicker around a track setting. It's the fan boys that say it's a better car, which I completely disagree with. It might have better tech and be quicker, but it's not a better built car, although that alone doesn't take it away from being a cool car! As always in life you get what you pay for. Would I get one? As long it's built like a Porsche or if I like my cars stock, yes, but it's far from being a Porsche and the fun in owning a car in addition to driving it is modding it so as of now...no. The expensive up-keep, weak links of the car, and Nissan's stringent warranty is more than enough for anyone to shy against it.
I could also understand your frustrations with the media as well, because they hail this car as king and the best out there, but fail to mention what can possibly go wrong by owning one. Don't know if that's a Nissan tactic or media ignorance/naiveness. I just don't go as far as thinking all the tests are shams. The numbers are real, but only under the expense of risking warranty or breaking parts. The only thing Nissan proved with the GT-R is that it can build a car quicker than a Porsche (under track settings), but not better than one.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 11-03-2008 at 07:42 AM.
[quote=jpvarghese;2117817]...The Bugatti is a million dollar car with a transmission that cost more than a GT-R. Of course its gonna be well developed and better engineered. quote]
The point is that Bugatti knew they needed to build a better tranny from an existing one. They didn't re-invent the DSG tranny did they? No they modified it know they were putting it under very very high HP and Torque. They did their homework because they had needed it to work and work over time.
Nissan in their infinite wisdom released a tranny that couldn't handle the HP/Torque. So here is a list of things.
1) Over 30 reported problems with the tranny in the US. Do your research I did mine. I will give you a start Florida has over 7 and Georgia has over 4. You come up with the rest. Those are only 2 states. Wait til spring when the upper northern GTR owners get a chance to drive again.
2) Product Manager shows people on video how to use LC!!! SMART FELLA!
3) Nissan voided a few trannies and comes out with another statement saying they do not warranty LC(they admit its there) and then after a few more failures said they will not void tranny warranty exclusively on the VDC being turned off but other factors will have to apply like LC!
4) Clutch is a non-serviceable part.
5) Gears is a non-serviceable part. If they were - VOID DRIVETRAIN WARRANTY.
6) PUMP RECALL ON ALL CARS in JAPAN. And they still have problems.
7) EURO LAWS stalling the delivery for GTR's. Little blackbox denial of warranty doesn't hold up well in Europe.
8) High Cost of up keep when used on track. 1800km suggested fluids flushed? $80 a quart at 10 quarts. Are you kidding me? Thats only one portion of the fluid change requirement/suggestion.
9) Track usage in JAPAN voids ENTIRE WARRANTY! - Wow how nice of them. Limiting the speed and then limit the only reason to have all that power. Let's encourage drag racing and light to light line ups.
Someone asked if Porsche would warranty 30 LC's with their new PDK. I am assuming YES since they show you how to use it and advertise it! WOW i know they admit they have it as a feature! Find me a disclosure form being signed on the new PDK. Show me in the owners manual where they void drivetrain for its usage. Abuse is subjective and that NISSAN FANBOYS is where having a relationship with your dealership can garner you some favors if need be. They can MAKE THEIR OWN DAMN DECISIONS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL! They don't have to call HANS in Germany to get opinion. They don't have to send the whole PDK tranny back to Germany to a complete inspection and have the customer wait 2 MONTHS to get a word on it. Oh wait NISSAN doesn't do that. They just void your warranty and send you a thank you letter.
P.S. Use some of that great engineering and put better fluids in your tranny as well as better gears. Also reduce the tolerance for the tranny temps so therefore if LC is used it won't work when the fluids are boiling. That would also help you on the track where some people have reported issues. Maybe install a metal detector down there while you are at it. Reports of metal shavings on the bottom of the pan is not good is it? They can hook it up to the PS3 and have it beep as more and more parts fall to the bottom.
Any Nissan fanboys want to refute my list of 9?.. Nagroc is not a good source to quote from. They only believe STILL that one tranny was denied warranty.
Alpine, I don't refute anything you are saying as the facts are gonna be the facts. I just don't understand what people think they're getting after dropping 70 grand. If the transmission they have on the car is gonna cost 20k with what it can handle, just imagine how much a beefier trans. from the factory will amount to in the total cost of the car. You get what you pay for. Nissan could have easily made a 150k car with all the reliability in the world, but no one is gonna drop that amount ever, on a Nissan. Nissan just misled customers into believing they are getting a bargain by spending 70k on a car that performs like one priced 150k. They just "forgot" to implement the associated costs and mention repercussions. You are also comparing this DSG to a PDK in a car with much less hp/far less torque. Of course it's going to be more forgiving. The only way you can compare the two is if PDK was available on the Turbo, which as of now it is not probably because Porsche knows the limitations of it. The only thing I disagree with many members here is their refusal to accept common, consistent published results and achievements of this car from many mags and owners; calling it a ploy/conspiracy..........regardless of its negatives. How luny does that sound? As I've said before, the GT-R might be quicker, but it's certainly not a better car.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 11-03-2008 at 08:58 AM.
It's a bit dull going over the same issues time and time again ...
All cars have warranty issues, especially new models. I have heard horror stories from virtually every prestige manufacturer you can think of (including Porsche, and especially Lamborghini and Ferrari). See what happens when you use the Ferrari launch control and your gearbox turns into shrapnel - no warranty, no help, nothing. Check what BMW's approach with launch control and SMG was in Europe (though they were sensible enough, like Ferrari are, not to let US customers near it).
There is nothing wrong with the GT-R gearbox - in fact, it's awesome to use, by far the best I've tried. I'd say the biggest problem is the fact that the car is cheap in the US, making it accessible to idiots and rednecks, of which there appear to be many. Combine that with the ridiculous litigation culture and a complete refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions in the States and you can see why Nissan should have never have let slip about any launch control. That aside, I can't think of any manufacturer that would ever stand by damage caused by innumerable full-bore standing starts. In any case, launch control is an entirely pointless feature - it excites the teenagers but is completely irrelevant to how an adult will ever use the car - if you are really so hung up about a fraction of a second in the quarter mile, buy a Top Fueler.
As for the gearbox parts and servicing, it uses the BorgWarner DualTronic wet clutches and control system, just like the Veyron does, and just like VAG group cars do. If you took the time to look at how they work, you would understand that it's not quite the same as a normal gearbox and consequently wear, maintenance and replacements are not going to be the same as a standard manual gearbox. The ZF bits in PDK are the same (and, as we have seen, PDK isn't immune to problems ... ).
It seems to me that the GT-R's biggest problems (other than the internet warriors) are Nissan's marketing department and dealers, not the product itself.
It's a bit dull going over the same issues time and time again ...
All cars have warranty issues, especially new models. I have heard horror stories from virtually every prestige manufacturer you can think of (including Porsche, and especially Lamborghini and Ferrari). See what happens when you use the Ferrari launch control and your gearbox turns into shrapnel - no warranty, no help, nothing. Check what BMW's approach with launch control and SMG was in Europe (though they were sensible enough, like Ferrari are, not to let US customers near it).
There is nothing wrong with the GT-R gearbox - in fact, it's awesome to use, by far the best I've tried. I'd say the biggest problem is the fact that the car is cheap in the US, making it accessible to idiots and rednecks, of which there appear to be many. Combine that with the ridiculous litigation culture and a complete refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions in the States and you can see why Nissan should have never have let slip about any launch control. That aside, I can't think of any manufacturer that would ever stand by damage caused by innumerable full-bore standing starts. In any case, launch control is an entirely pointless feature - it excites the teenagers but is completely irrelevant to how an adult will ever use the car - if you are really so hung up about a fraction of a second in the quarter mile, buy a Top Fueler.
As for the gearbox parts and servicing, it uses the BorgWarner DualTronic wet clutches and control system, just like the Veyron does, and just like VAG group cars do. If you took the time to look at how they work, you would understand that it's not quite the same as a normal gearbox and consequently wear, maintenance and replacements are not going to be the same as a standard manual gearbox. The ZF bits in PDK are the same (and, as we have seen, PDK isn't immune to problems ... ).
It seems to me that the GT-R's biggest problems (other than the internet warriors) are Nissan's marketing department and dealers, not the product itself.
That's just wonderful--80 grand is cheap, making it accessible to rednecks and idiots in the US who abuse the car. To most Americans, 80 grand is alot of money, certainly not the kind of car most americans can afford. That's around Cayman S territory, actually more, and I can assure you that there aren't a lot of low lifes buying Caymans and abusing them. I have one and I go to the Cayman clubsite often, and the vast majority of owners treat them like babies. I doubt folks are buying GTRs and then running to the dragstrip to tear them up. That is just a ridiculous excuse.
That's just wonderful--80 grand is cheap, making it accessible to rednecks and idiots in the US who abuse the car. To most Americans, 80 grand is alot of money, certainly not the kind of car most americans can afford. That's around Cayman S territory, actually more, and I can assure you that there aren't a lot of low lifes buying Caymans and abusing them. I have one and I go to the Cayman clubsite often, and the vast majority of owners treat them like babies. I doubt folks are buying GTRs and then running to the dragstrip to tear them up. That is just a ridiculous excuse.
You can not compare the buyer of an 80K rice rocket to an 80K German sports car. The demographics speak for themselves, and while the comments aren't exactly accurate, replace redneck with punk kid and idiot with idiot and you have a pretty realistic picture of who is buying the GTR. Its the Civic, Lancer, STI of the moment, like the old Z, Supra, etc of yesterday. These kids bought these cars thinking they could pop on over to any local ricearoni tuner to get more power to beat other punks at the local stop light. When you are given a piece of paperwork that states void of warranty at delivery will take place by the following actions, you run out of there. Kids don't read, they sign 15% APR loans for 72 months
Let them keep selling GTR's, so far in Chicago I have not seen one on the road, hmmmmm where could they all be?
and you have a pretty realistic picture of who is buying the GTR. Its the Civic, Lancer, STI of the moment, like the old Z, Supra, etc of yesterday. These kids bought these cars thinking they could pop on over to any local ricearoni tuner to get more power to beat other punks at the local stop light. When you are given a piece of paperwork that states void of warranty at delivery will take place by the following actions, you run out of there. Kids don't read, they sign 15% APR loans for 72 months 
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