Awesome day at AWE Tuning!

[Josh@TPCRACING]

First I want to apologize, I know I've somewhat hijacked this thread. The guys at AWE do fantastic work and build some amazing cars. Obviously as many have seen in our videos, we use a 2WD Dynojet. The reason This is not an issue is because, like I stated earlier, under most driving conditions, nearly 100% of the power goes to the rear wheels. Because the only time drivers would be able to put down full power with these cars would be in a straight line, all the power would be shifted to the rear wheels anyways. The front wheels only receive power when the rear wheels start to lose traction. Therefore, for the purposes of measuring maximum power, we are able to get an accurate measurment using our 2WD Dynojet. Also, if someone measured a baseline of 380whp, that would mean that a car with no driveshaft was suffering a power loss of 26%. On the other hand, we all know that Porsche often underrates their cars. So it is possible that while these cars are rated at 480bhp, it could be producing power somewhere in the neighborhood of ~500bhp.

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[MBailey]

I believe the car should be dynoed in the same configuration that you plan to drive it in. If you RW dyno a car that you are going use as AWD you are going to give yourself more hp to the wheel than you really will have once you return the car to AWD. Conversely if you dyno AWD then convert car to RWD you are now underestimating your WHP due to differing drivetrain losses. I know Porsche is really good at minimizing DT losses but RWD still looses less than AWD.

[Josh@TPCRACING]

388whp? really? what's wrong with that car? Are really suggesting that a brand new Porsche 997Turbo is coming off the dealer lot suffering from ~23% power loss?

The additional drivetrain losses in this car for being in AWD measure ~1%. Even with that additional loss, we use the most conservative conversion on the market...15%.

By the way, thanks for knocking on us on an open forum when you weren't mentioned in the first place. Vivid, we've never attacked you or your products or your tuning methods. You don't become one of the most winning teams in Rolex Grand Am history by not knowing what you're talking about. I would like to apologize to both Taylorcoleman and to AWE Tuning ofr the course this thread has taken. I would like to refocus this thread on what's important. It's great to hear that AWE treated you so well and really took their time to get things right. It great to see a company take so much time to satisfy their customers. AWE keep up the great work!!!

[bbywu]

The only other test to confirm HP being produced would be trap time or flat out runs. I don't think it is a always a fair or correct assessment to use correction factors and driveline loss to calculate estimated crank horsepower, especially if the dyno used to calculate those numbers was done on a different car, different day, different conditions and setup. I brought up the issue of the dyno numbers to taylorcoleman (OP) is to see if there was a pre-mod dyno to measure absolute change from the modifications and engine tune. I think we can all agree that that is what a dyno is best used for.

[taylorcoleman]

josh@tpcracing -- apology accepted.

[Tom@Rennsport-1]

Kudos to Mike, Todd, and the crew at AWE. Even before I was directly involved with this industry I dealth with AWE on many occasions as a customer and I really believe they're a great group of guys with rock solid products. I like to call them friends too.

[imcarnuts]

Originally Posted by Tom@Rennsport-1

Kudos to Mike, Todd, and the crew at AWE.

+1

I've been to AWE twice and was treated fabulously both times. Great products - great people.

What constitutes the 650 kit?

[taylorcoleman]

Originally Posted by imcarnuts

+1

I've been to AWE twice and was treated fabulously both times. Great products - great people.

What constitutes the 650 kit?

I've excerpted from a 6/8/09 post by Mike at AWE regarding their 3 stages,including the 650 kit:

"Just so we are all clear on the breakdown. Let me know if there are questions.

(600hp) Stg1 - A.W.E. Tuning mufflers and G.I.A.C. software

(650hp) Stg2 - A.W.E. Tuning Mufflers, Headers, Intercoolers, 82mm Throttle Body, and G.I.A.C. software.

(750hp) Stg3 - All of the above plus our modified VTG Turbos. For 6speed cars we do recommend a Sachs Racing Clutch.

We are most proud of our 750R kit. The drive ability is factory smooth and all Bosch Motronic safety features have remained intact.

On top of all that, we have true multiple program flashing"

I already had the GIAC flash, and the Fabspeed sport exhaust v3 (plus Fabspeed headers) prior to purchasing the 650 kit. So I purchased the larger throttle body, and Intercoolers as incrementals adds. The customized GIAC flash for this kit was a small-fee upgrade from my prior version. That was one of many selling points for me choosing AWE -- they were able to work with my existing mods.

I recently sold my Fabspeed headers and acquired a set of used AWE headers. AWE even gave me a heads up on that private sale -- they could have easily sold me on new headers, but didn't. Stand up guys.

I have retained my Fabspeed sport exhaust v3 because I prefer the sound over other vendors' systems.

[Fabryce@GMGRacing]

Guys bottom line is we can sit here and debate as to what dyno and drivetrain loss is accurate until we are blue in the face.

We have a Mustang AWD 500SE with a fully enclosed and dedicated test cell.

Porsche Motorsport North America is directly across the street from our facility (no more than 20 yards away). We have engines built by PMNA for our race cars and have literally taken them off there dyno(each engine is dyno tuned and tested prior to being delivered to a customer) installed in one of the Cup cars be it in stock trim or World Challenge trim and the numbers are considerably different.
The variables and the drivetrain loss are all relative to the car you are testing at that time.

There are several other variables to consider when dyno testing a car, you want repeatabilty and the enviorment needs to be consistently controlled for correct and true results.

Each car is different regardless of what anyone is going to tell you.

As advice to any consumer I would tell you to look for the "improvement" in performance and not just the final number HP. Regardless if you by GMG products or anyone else's.

It doesnt matter what the car makes in the end.


As a company we have always been very conservative on the numbers we claim to make and our Mustand Dyno is also very conservative as to the numbers it puts down.



In the end the only way to really get an accurate "real" hp number on any engine is to have it dyno'd on a true engine dyno that has been certified.

It would be great to line up all the tuners who ever they maybe.
1 engine dyno and dyno everyone in the same enviorment using the same equipment to see what the "real" power gains are but that will never happen.


For your viewing pleasure here is a picture of our dyno test cell:










Our dyno is available for rent for "consumers" and "tuners" in the so cal area.
We currently work with several of the OE car makers that have headquarters in the area as well.




The topic of what the "true" numbers are will be debated for decades to come.


To make a statement that one dyno is better than another because its sanctioned by a racing organization is not fair either.. Just because they are sanctioned or that they are the official dyno means nothing.. We are also involved in professional racing and we all know the "deals" that are made when it comes to be the "official this or that". Its all a matter of business in the end.

Maha and Superflow are one of the OE suppliers of dynomometers to major european
car manufacturers does this make them better than any other ? Not really its just that those suppliers of equipment offer that manufacture certain features and costs that work best for them.

Why did we go with a Mustang Dyno? GIAC is a development partner to GMG and they have used the Mustang Dyno for years, in order to maintain reliability and consistency when developing products it was our decision to have the same equipment. In the end it made sense to go that route.
Why did we go through to the extent and cost $$$ of having a true "test cell" the answer is simple. We wanted to maintian the most consistent enviorment for the best repeatability throughout the development process.


Dont get me wrong "Every Tuner" and "Every Company" is entitled to there way of coming up with HP numbers. Most are reputable, stand behind what they claim and offer a reliable product that improves performance overall.

[TT Surgeon]

Fab, nice writeup, what kind of numbers and drivetrain loss do you tend to see on a stock 997tt?
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