@IMI A, excellent info from your UK tuner!

 

This is very true as I have first hand experience of this but it is always good to see what they can do before you ditch them otherwise it will always be at the back of your mind (what would it have been like)!

 

Keep in mind that most are referring to BHP when they quote those numbers and in that case, a "775" kit should really be about 600 at the wheels.

I disagree with your statement about 700bhp being the max on VTG's. That may be the max on OEM vtg's, but modified ones are absolutely capable of much more, but they do certainly have a limit, I'd agree. The highest number we've seen with our 68mm modified VTG's up to this point has been 885whp. That was on a GT2 with a built 3.8L with forged internals. On an AWD car with the same engine and turbo setup, the highest we've seen with the 68's is about 795-815whp depending on the car. I'm not sure what drivetrain loss percentage most people use these days to calculate BHP based on the WHP numbers, but I'm pretty sure that's more then 775.

 

Thanks Tom. I'm quoting figures at the crank so you're way way higher power on VTGS than the main guys in Europe. For anything above 700 bhp at the crank European tuners drop VTGS as they've not come across VTGS which operate reliably and without the ECU pulling timing above this power level.

Also our cars here at events like VMAX are generally run hard over say 30-50 back to back runs over approaching 2 miles. 0-300 kph is the only real way of testing how much power a car has and whether the car can hold onto that power when driven at its outer limits.

I expect 8 years after the introduction of VTGS you have done this exercise many times hence what sort of 0-300kph times have your 885bhp GT2 and 815whp turbo achieved?

 

and I thought I was the only one that was insane... I got beat up on the 996 thread when I said that oem 997.1 TT are no where near 650 AWHP just with injectors and E85 and XXX tune. Im sorry but I still believe in law of physics and Im not new to this game. Even 65 mm VTGS on race gas tap out at low 600s and thats a fact not some dunos one throws out. thats like asking 600whp on a 996 on OEM K16s.. never going to happen. But I hate to argue.. this is the " who's got the highest HP figures game" vs. who can make the car run right all around and do it right and not blow it up like some do pushing for the limits... I know Im not going to find friends saying this but Im as straight up as it gets... been like that for 11 years on 6speed.
markski

 

I always appreciate reading your opinions markski. No sugar coating.

So the question for you would be .... If u wanted to have the fastest streetable vtg setup on stock internals what would u suggest?

This is assuming one has done ic and exhaust.

 

I would agree with this 100%. Our 65mm VTG's (even in the larger billet compressor housing) max out at around 625whp on race gas.

For anything over that, we always recommend our 68's, which have the limits I posted in my last reply.

 

Right and add those 68s on a gt2 turbo and now your talking... I've been saying this for 4 years but a many adhere to blown up dynos with unrealistic figures.
E85 alone is not going to change the output of a VTG turbo - every turbo is limited by the turbine side... its a miracle fuel I agree but it also makes holes in your block when not careful. The client who bought my set up with 65 mm on pump and race gas converted to E85 with injectors with another tuner only to grenade the motor 2 weeks later... if you want to shorten the life of your motor stay on E85.. sort of like being on a steroid cycle except you never get off of it until your heart gives out...

As far as 65mm vs 63s.. I have clients in Kuwait that made 618 whp on the 63.5s.. I think both are close in peak performance.. thats my honest opinion.. I had the 65s on my own car... I also did 63.5s and the difference is marginal... but the 65s come rebuilt thus the higher cost... etc...
markski

 

Tom, If you have a 885whp VTG car or 815whp VTG car pls post a VBOX 0-300kph time with data log. Imi

 

I can say the stock turbos with 997.2 intercoolers, inlet pipes, injectors, clutch, exhaust, and appropriate tuning on e85 should be good for right around 600awhp. That's somewhere around 22psi falling off to 17-18psi at 7000rpm.

I dyno'd high 580's without the inlet pipes on a Mainline dyno, which is probably closer for conversions sake to the European BHP numbers. Dynojets are a bit optimistic. The car picked up a bit after the inlet pipes, I think it would have been right around 600 but never got a chance to re-dyno before putting Champion 68s on. Right around 550-575 to the wheels and the stock inlet pipes are done.

 

I did 563 awd on 100 octane which is just glorified 93 octane on a dynojet. Then a shop had me do a retune on a car with an existing tune( not going to mention which one) and made 460 awd on a mustang( exhaust and gt2RS ICs).. see how these numbers are all over? the same car made 396 with the exhaust and ICs with oem tune... With that said, if anyone thinks you can take that 396 awd car and put into the 600whp just with race gas and or E85 is honestly dreaming... your asking of 200 AWHP just my tune and fuel... doesn't add up...

 

Actually that's about what I'd expect for the most part. The Dynojet reads high, the Mustang is sort of in the middle. My car made 399 on the Mainline with a Europipe and an air filter. Came back and made 580+ with intercoolers, E85, injectors, etc on the same dyno.

 

So I'm guessing 1.5 bar with exhaust temp protection turned off. That's really hard on the car. I move mine to 1020 but leave the protection on. After 980 C the car starts to dump fuel and freaks outs. You ran mafless ?

 

Yes, 1.5 bar or spiking a bit more then trailing off to 17-18psi by redline. I was logging the EGT (modeled) and didn't see it getting that hot. It was definitely pushing the turbos flat out. That's really why I upgraded to the 68mm turbos as I was certainly not extending their lifespan running them that hard.

I believe that tuneup (from Protomotive) was in fact MAFless but I still had them installed/connected.

I'm much happier with the Cobb setup now, with the ATR software I can make minor tweaks when I want to. The car definitely runs smoother off-boost now on the Cobb. I had to hit the pause button while moving and put the car in storage but I'm back up and running again.

 

Sorry...I've covered this topic many times before. There is absolutely no road anywhere near us here in Florida where it's even remotely safe to go 300kph, let alone doing it in a car that does not belong to me, and would cost over $275k replace.

If you don't believe it, I'm OK with that. Those who know me (and know Champion) know that we're not in the habit of falsifying dyno numbers for the sake of bragging rights. We've got plenty of other things we can brag about if need be.