advantage in a 997.2TT over a 997.1TT? (facts please)
#46
10-20-2012, 09:32 AM
Cannga,
I'm glad you posted. Again, there is no documented proof showing the rods are acutally weaker. Not to discredit Champion but just because someone says something doesn't make it true. If I said I ran a 9.9 second quarter mile on stock turbos everyone would be asking me to show proof with a time slip or some kind of verifiable documentation. Maybe the rods are weaker, maybe not. Show me proof before making statements without actual evidence is all I ask. I really want to find out for my own benfit as I plan on upgrading as well.
I'm glad you posted. Again, there is no documented proof showing the rods are acutally weaker. Not to discredit Champion but just because someone says something doesn't make it true. If I said I ran a 9.9 second quarter mile on stock turbos everyone would be asking me to show proof with a time slip or some kind of verifiable documentation. Maybe the rods are weaker, maybe not. Show me proof before making statements without actual evidence is all I ask. I really want to find out for my own benfit as I plan on upgrading as well.
All that having been said, I believe the 997.2 is an awesome 911 as well, and has definite advantages over the 997.1. But a "bulletproof engine" isn't one of them.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 10-20-2012 at 09:34 AM.
#47
10-20-2012, 11:40 AM
CMS did do tensile tests on both rods and found the .2s to be 11-12% weaker in tensile strength.
#48
10-20-2012, 12:49 PM
Better is always the enemy of good.
however, anyone interested in the legend may consider my attachment.
Perhaps, in 40 Years my kids will learn that the DFI engine is legendary. Until than this attribute belongs to mezger
however, anyone interested in the legend may consider my attachment.
Perhaps, in 40 Years my kids will learn that the DFI engine is legendary. Until than this attribute belongs to mezger
Last edited by Frizz; 10-20-2012 at 12:52 PM.
#49
10-20-2012, 01:42 PM
LOL. The onus is on you to prove the 997.2 rods are the same strength. Not the other way around. When you make 900whp on your stock motor 997.2 with out any issues, let us know. Because that's how much you can make on a 997.1 without issues (because it's a much stronger motor). Good luck!
All that having been said, I believe the 997.2 is an awesome 911 as well, and has definite advantages over the 997.1. But a "bulletproof engine" isn't one of them.
All that having been said, I believe the 997.2 is an awesome 911 as well, and has definite advantages over the 997.1. But a "bulletproof engine" isn't one of them.
#50
10-20-2012, 01:51 PM
I never implied that you naysayers are suppose to prove to me that the DFI engine is better, same, or worse. All I asked was that if your going to make such claims that the DFI engine is crap to modify, please explain how you came to that conclusion and show me evidence of such. OP asked for facts. You are merely spouting out your opinion.
So who to believe? TT Chris, who more than likely has zero experience building Porsche motors, or performance shops who build (and race) Porsche motors for a living?
By the way, the DFI motor isn't 'crap'. It's just not nearly as stout as the Mezger when it comes to making big power If I wanted a Porsche with only light bolt-ons or at the stock power level, I'd happily own a 997.2.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 10-20-2012 at 02:16 PM.
#51
10-20-2012, 01:51 PM
For reliable 900 you would need the GT3 engine,which is definitely the strongest
#52
10-20-2012, 01:52 PM
Nah. It has already been reliably made on a stock 997.1 motor. A stock high-compression GT3 engine with all that boost added to it would grenade after a few runs. If you lowered the compression on a GT3 motor (different pistons), than yes...it would handle a lot of boost for sure.
#53
10-20-2012, 02:04 PM
Actually, I'm spouting the educated opinion of Porsche tuners who work on these cars for a living (Switzer, Champion, Protomotive, TPC Racing). They've all told me the same thing.
So who to believe? TT Chris, who more than likely has zero experience building Porsche motors, or performance shops who build Porsche motors for a for a living?
Keep living in your dream world, bro.
So who to believe? TT Chris, who more than likely has zero experience building Porsche motors, or performance shops who build Porsche motors for a for a living?
Keep living in your dream world, bro.
Next time someone needs a rumor spread I'll just send them your way. Bro.
#54
10-20-2012, 02:11 PM
But unfortunately, the stock DFI motors simply and factually cannot handle big power like the 997.1TTs can. Bro.
#55
10-20-2012, 02:16 PM
Better yet, ask the guys who build these cars for a living like I do. If they could make big power on stock internals on 997.2TT's, they'd be all over it. They'd be making money hand over fist.
But unfortunately, the stock DFI motors simply and factually cannot handle big power like the 997.1TTs can. Bro.
But unfortunately, the stock DFI motors simply and factually cannot handle big power like the 997.1TTs can. Bro.
On a side note. I spoke to Todd last summer. He said the 997.2TT can make big power. But I'm not sure relative to what.
Last edited by TT Chris; 10-20-2012 at 02:20 PM.
#56
10-20-2012, 02:21 PM
If the 991 comes with the exact same 3.8 DFI, it will be perfectly safe at whatever power level that Porsche releases it at (which will probably be less than 600 to the crank). But that is in nowhere near what a stock Mezger motor can reliably make (over 1000 hp to the crank).
And yes, the term "big power" is relative.
#57
10-20-2012, 02:56 PM
Any Porsche that comes with the current 3.8L DFI motor is not as stout, internally, as the GT1 derived Mezger engine that was in the 996 and 997 Turbos and GT series cars.
If the 991 comes with the exact same 3.8 DFI, it will be perfectly safe at whatever power level that Porsche releases it at (which will probably be less than 600 to the crank). But that is in nowhere near what a stock Mezger motor can reliably make (over 1000 hp to the crank).
And yes, the term "big power" is relative.
If the 991 comes with the exact same 3.8 DFI, it will be perfectly safe at whatever power level that Porsche releases it at (which will probably be less than 600 to the crank). But that is in nowhere near what a stock Mezger motor can reliably make (over 1000 hp to the crank).
And yes, the term "big power" is relative.
Scott,
are there any long term 997 TTs with stock internals and pushing 900 awhp?
can we list the names?
how many miles did these stock motors last?
I own a 997.1 TT and will be happy to know these details.
I ve been told that a sub 6,0 s 100-200 km/h time is where the metzger will turn into a ticking bomb.
We need data which will tell us the mileage put on 800-900 awhp metzgers.
#58
10-20-2012, 03:07 PM
Scott,
are there any long term 997 TTs with stock internals and pushing 900 awhp?
can we list the names?
how many miles did these stock motors last?
I own a 997.1 TT and will be happy to know these details.
I ve been told that a sub 6,0 s 100-200 km/h time is where the metzger will turn into a ticking bomb.
We need data which will tell us the mileage put on 800-900 awhp metzgers.
are there any long term 997 TTs with stock internals and pushing 900 awhp?
can we list the names?
how many miles did these stock motors last?
I own a 997.1 TT and will be happy to know these details.
I ve been told that a sub 6,0 s 100-200 km/h time is where the metzger will turn into a ticking bomb.
We need data which will tell us the mileage put on 800-900 awhp metzgers.
Powell's 996TT made 868whp on the stock motor, and went 10.08 @ 149 and ran 4.89 60-130 (4.19 100.200 km/h) at that level without issues. He has since built his motor in the quest for much more power.
TT Dude made 983whp on the stock motor in his Protomotive 997.1TT - https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ock-motor.html
When any 3.8L DFI produces results like these on stock internals, please let me know.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; 10-20-2012 at 03:10 PM.
#60
10-20-2012, 03:38 PM
It is definitely true at this point that the 997.1TT easier and cheaper to tune straight out of the box. Does it mean 997.2TT cannot be tuned? No. The DFI engine is here to stay and while the tuners have had decades with the GT1 engine, they have only worked on the DFI for a year or so. I am doing a full engine rebuild of a 930 Turbo engine and have replaced many OEM parts with aftermarket parts to strengthen it further. I'm sure tuners will have aftermarket parts for the DFI as time goes on. Another limitation is the PDK gearbox. Since most 997.2TTs and all 997.2TTSs, come with PDK, tuners also have to make sure that the PDK gearbox can take higher hp applications. What I'm saying is that the argument now is that DFI can't do more that 650+ hp, but I believe that it's a matter of time that we will see 700 hp, 800 hp, and so on. Price may be an issue, but I'm guessing it'll be do-able.
As for the debate of the last "classic" Turbo, it's definitely the 997TT, but only time will tell if it's the 997.1 or the 997.2. What's for sure is that the 991TTT will be superior but very different. But once again, if history proves itself, the final iteration of the model usually takes the prize, unless of course the DFI self-distructs over time. I'll still place my bet on the 997.2TT, especially since production numbers will be much lower. Either way, I believe that either owning the 997.1TT or the 997.2TT manual won't make us any money cause it'll never be "classic" like the classics, but it'd be a fun 911 to own since the 991 will be a completely different beast with the electronics.
To further support your point that the 997TT will be the last "classic" turbo, the 991 will have a "pointless" manual gearbox in my opinion since it's based off of a heavier PDK gearbox, so in a manual (if it is offered) you lose shift speed vs. the faster computer operated PDK while you have to deal with the heavier weight of the PDK transmission even in the manual.
Back to the OP, both .1 and .2 are great cars. Can't go wrong with either. I have been arguing for the .2 simply to offer another side to the debate, but I believe both are excellent cars and both to me are very similar with small tradeoffs. Price-wise, can't go wrong with the .1. One thing I think we can all agree on is that the 997TT is a car we would all love. I for sure will be keeping mine. As Peskarik put it, and I agree, last "classic" 911 Turbo. Before the computers take over.
As for the debate of the last "classic" Turbo, it's definitely the 997TT, but only time will tell if it's the 997.1 or the 997.2. What's for sure is that the 991TTT will be superior but very different. But once again, if history proves itself, the final iteration of the model usually takes the prize, unless of course the DFI self-distructs over time. I'll still place my bet on the 997.2TT, especially since production numbers will be much lower. Either way, I believe that either owning the 997.1TT or the 997.2TT manual won't make us any money cause it'll never be "classic" like the classics, but it'd be a fun 911 to own since the 991 will be a completely different beast with the electronics.
To further support your point that the 997TT will be the last "classic" turbo, the 991 will have a "pointless" manual gearbox in my opinion since it's based off of a heavier PDK gearbox, so in a manual (if it is offered) you lose shift speed vs. the faster computer operated PDK while you have to deal with the heavier weight of the PDK transmission even in the manual.
Back to the OP, both .1 and .2 are great cars. Can't go wrong with either. I have been arguing for the .2 simply to offer another side to the debate, but I believe both are excellent cars and both to me are very similar with small tradeoffs. Price-wise, can't go wrong with the .1. One thing I think we can all agree on is that the 997TT is a car we would all love. I for sure will be keeping mine. As Peskarik put it, and I agree, last "classic" 911 Turbo. Before the computers take over.
Interesting info about manual transmission based off of PDK, where did you pick up that info, care to share a link, please?
I will disagree on one point, which is that 997.2T is a classic. This will sound stupid probably, but the last real classic is still 997.1T, simply because of the 3.6 engine. It may be less efficient and costlier to produce and service than 3.8, but it has 40-year history. Whether 997.1T will keep its value - who knows, and I do not really care, mine is a true DD, I have no other car.