What I learned about Porsches and McLarens
#1
08-18-2013, 06:08 PM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,784
Rep Power: 1006 
What I learned about Porsches and McLarens
...and why I left the GT2 for a 12C...
I have owned a 997 GT2 for several years now - purchased used with <200 miles on the odometer. Over 3 years of ownership, my experience has been sublime - a very fast daily driver with excellent driver feedback, phenomenal road feel, incredible reliability, with behavior that is worthy of both the track and routine use. With the exception of the plugs and coil packs, the car was easily serviceable, and relatively inexpensive. The best of all worlds - fast, friendly, well behaved, scalpel like reflexes, and reliable.
As time has passed, circumstances in my life has left me looking for an alternative to the GT2. Although I hadn't considered a British sports car before, the heritage of McLaren, their dedication to motor sports, their pedigree, and their release of an mid engined sports car that is in the price market of the GT2 made it an appealing choice. After much deliberating, I have sold my GT2 and purchased a MP4-12C.
After a long weekend behind the wheel through the open roads of Wisconsin, I have found McLaren's offering to be a worthy alternative to the GT2. In fact, there are many things I find about the 12C that I believe Porsche can learn from.
With the imminent release of the 991 GT3 to the public hands, I hope Porsche hits the R&D department hard to incorporate the technology available in competing sports cars into the 991 GT2.
This is not a debate on double clutch transmissions versus manual transmissions. But I have no doubt that the pricing schedule for the 991 Turbo S will put the 991 GT2 in the same market as the 12C. Here are a few thoughts.
1. Weight
993 GT2 2,855 lbs.
996 GT2 3,153 lbs.
997 GT2 3,170 lbs.
With the availability of carbon fiber and other light weight technologies, Porsche needs to refocus their efforts in reducing the weight of their vehicles. We all know the performance benefits of a lighter vehicle. And while the 991 GT3 incorporates newer technologies to improve handling and power, it will be the heaviest GT3 ever produced. Hopefully, this will not be the case with the GT2.
McLaren incorporates a carbon fiber tub, and makes every attempt to shave weight. Working with Carbo Tech in Austria and Toray in Japan, McLaren is able to produce a complete single-piece carbon-fiber "MonoCell" for the 12C in just four hours. In the previous F1's chassis, the labor required 3000 hours and 100 people. In the MB SLR, it still required 400 hours to produce six carbon-fiber pieces that were then mated together to form the tub.
To bring the cost down and increase the speed of production, the MonoCell uses a new Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) automated process. Sheets of dry carbon-fiber cloth are cut into shape and laid out in a 35-ton, 7-piece steel mold that closes and is infused with resin. The carbon-fiber tub is subjected to 218 psi of pressure at 167 degrees Fahrenheit. After curing two more hours at about 260 degrees F, the tub is then released.
The unmachined MonoCell is already within 1 mm of design specifications. Improve tolerances to F1 like specs, the tub is sent to a computer-controlled milling machine for finishing touches. Because the RTM process can accommodate complex designs, the single-piece hollow tub incorporating different shapes and attachment points is possible - it is the same tub found in every version of the 12C, form those designed for motorsports, to the ones making it to the end consumer. McLaren reports that a single MonoCell tub weighs 165 lb. It is some 25 percent lighter and stiffer than a comparable aluminum chassis.
Other weight saving measures include a lighter wiring loom with a hexagonal cross-section is employed, shaving another 8 lb. And for the car's Airbrake, a flap that rises to help slow the car down above 59 mph, engineers determined a smaller motor could be used for deployment by using aerodynamic forces to assist in its elevation, maximizing braking assistance. Overall, the McLaren MP4-12C's dry weight tips the scale at 2945 lb.
2. Exhaust
Watch the first 10 seconds of this video:
We all know that the aftermarket exhausts on the can improve the enjoyment and visceral appeal of driving a sports car. Can Porsche please spend more R&D time improving the exhaust tone of their forced induction cars?
The MP4-12C produces an impressive sound. Unlike Lamborghini's, Ferrari's or the LFA's bark, the 12C produces a satisfying high reving scream with satisfying burbles as the RPMs fall, and a hint of turbo whispering in the background. During WOT, the exhaust produces a grunt that climbs to a scream over 8K RPM.
3. Driver oriented environment.
This:
or this:
Why do PDKs still have a center shifter?
4. The balance between performance and daily use.
With regards to performance, as has been reported elsewhere, the 12C is very very quick. From a standing start, with no technological gizmos, the acceleration feels similar to a naturally aspirated car until the engine reaches boost threshold, after which, the car moves to the next zip code. The turbos respond quickly, and like most forced induction vehicles, requires about 2500-3000 RPM to be in the threshold zone.
The acceleration is nothing less than violent and unrelenting. With the double clutch SSG, there is no perceivable lag as you move from gear to gear in motion. The brake pedal feel is very stiff, but the modulation is excellent. Carbon ceramics are optional, but the steel rotors (like the Porsche) are very very good and are significantly cheaper to replace.
The dual-clutch transmission is excellent. Shifts are lightning fast especially with pre-cog, and the paddles provide a satisfying pull and click as you load the next gear. The paddles are mounted on the wheel itself, which allows the driver to maintain hand position as the wheel turns around. The steering wheel is circular, but not a round tube - it is elliptical providing the driver a sensation of grip and confidence with perfectly positioned paddles.
The most impressive feature I have found is the hydraulic suspension. I have never been in a car as comfortable and as compliant to Wisconsin roads as the 12C. And I have never experienced a true transformation into a track scalpel until this weekend. When the handling **** is turned to track, I experienced a complete transformation - as if the spring rates have changed on the vehicle. No other vehicle has come even remotely close to the flexibility of the 12C.
When I dial the handling to "Normal" the ride quality is as compliant as a Honda Accord. No bone crushing, back breaking jarring like a GT-R. In fact, I believe there was an accelerometer test showing the forces recorded in the cabin were as compliant as a Rolls Royce. This is a car that you can truly drive every day without visiting a chiropractor.
More thoughts to come...
I have owned a 997 GT2 for several years now - purchased used with <200 miles on the odometer. Over 3 years of ownership, my experience has been sublime - a very fast daily driver with excellent driver feedback, phenomenal road feel, incredible reliability, with behavior that is worthy of both the track and routine use. With the exception of the plugs and coil packs, the car was easily serviceable, and relatively inexpensive. The best of all worlds - fast, friendly, well behaved, scalpel like reflexes, and reliable.
As time has passed, circumstances in my life has left me looking for an alternative to the GT2. Although I hadn't considered a British sports car before, the heritage of McLaren, their dedication to motor sports, their pedigree, and their release of an mid engined sports car that is in the price market of the GT2 made it an appealing choice. After much deliberating, I have sold my GT2 and purchased a MP4-12C.
After a long weekend behind the wheel through the open roads of Wisconsin, I have found McLaren's offering to be a worthy alternative to the GT2. In fact, there are many things I find about the 12C that I believe Porsche can learn from.
With the imminent release of the 991 GT3 to the public hands, I hope Porsche hits the R&D department hard to incorporate the technology available in competing sports cars into the 991 GT2.
This is not a debate on double clutch transmissions versus manual transmissions. But I have no doubt that the pricing schedule for the 991 Turbo S will put the 991 GT2 in the same market as the 12C. Here are a few thoughts.
1. Weight
993 GT2 2,855 lbs.
996 GT2 3,153 lbs.
997 GT2 3,170 lbs.
With the availability of carbon fiber and other light weight technologies, Porsche needs to refocus their efforts in reducing the weight of their vehicles. We all know the performance benefits of a lighter vehicle. And while the 991 GT3 incorporates newer technologies to improve handling and power, it will be the heaviest GT3 ever produced. Hopefully, this will not be the case with the GT2.
McLaren incorporates a carbon fiber tub, and makes every attempt to shave weight. Working with Carbo Tech in Austria and Toray in Japan, McLaren is able to produce a complete single-piece carbon-fiber "MonoCell" for the 12C in just four hours. In the previous F1's chassis, the labor required 3000 hours and 100 people. In the MB SLR, it still required 400 hours to produce six carbon-fiber pieces that were then mated together to form the tub.
To bring the cost down and increase the speed of production, the MonoCell uses a new Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) automated process. Sheets of dry carbon-fiber cloth are cut into shape and laid out in a 35-ton, 7-piece steel mold that closes and is infused with resin. The carbon-fiber tub is subjected to 218 psi of pressure at 167 degrees Fahrenheit. After curing two more hours at about 260 degrees F, the tub is then released.
The unmachined MonoCell is already within 1 mm of design specifications. Improve tolerances to F1 like specs, the tub is sent to a computer-controlled milling machine for finishing touches. Because the RTM process can accommodate complex designs, the single-piece hollow tub incorporating different shapes and attachment points is possible - it is the same tub found in every version of the 12C, form those designed for motorsports, to the ones making it to the end consumer. McLaren reports that a single MonoCell tub weighs 165 lb. It is some 25 percent lighter and stiffer than a comparable aluminum chassis.
Other weight saving measures include a lighter wiring loom with a hexagonal cross-section is employed, shaving another 8 lb. And for the car's Airbrake, a flap that rises to help slow the car down above 59 mph, engineers determined a smaller motor could be used for deployment by using aerodynamic forces to assist in its elevation, maximizing braking assistance. Overall, the McLaren MP4-12C's dry weight tips the scale at 2945 lb.
2. Exhaust
Watch the first 10 seconds of this video:
We all know that the aftermarket exhausts on the can improve the enjoyment and visceral appeal of driving a sports car. Can Porsche please spend more R&D time improving the exhaust tone of their forced induction cars?
The MP4-12C produces an impressive sound. Unlike Lamborghini's, Ferrari's or the LFA's bark, the 12C produces a satisfying high reving scream with satisfying burbles as the RPMs fall, and a hint of turbo whispering in the background. During WOT, the exhaust produces a grunt that climbs to a scream over 8K RPM.
3. Driver oriented environment.
This:
or this:
Why do PDKs still have a center shifter?
4. The balance between performance and daily use.
With regards to performance, as has been reported elsewhere, the 12C is very very quick. From a standing start, with no technological gizmos, the acceleration feels similar to a naturally aspirated car until the engine reaches boost threshold, after which, the car moves to the next zip code. The turbos respond quickly, and like most forced induction vehicles, requires about 2500-3000 RPM to be in the threshold zone.
The acceleration is nothing less than violent and unrelenting. With the double clutch SSG, there is no perceivable lag as you move from gear to gear in motion. The brake pedal feel is very stiff, but the modulation is excellent. Carbon ceramics are optional, but the steel rotors (like the Porsche) are very very good and are significantly cheaper to replace.
The dual-clutch transmission is excellent. Shifts are lightning fast especially with pre-cog, and the paddles provide a satisfying pull and click as you load the next gear. The paddles are mounted on the wheel itself, which allows the driver to maintain hand position as the wheel turns around. The steering wheel is circular, but not a round tube - it is elliptical providing the driver a sensation of grip and confidence with perfectly positioned paddles.
The most impressive feature I have found is the hydraulic suspension. I have never been in a car as comfortable and as compliant to Wisconsin roads as the 12C. And I have never experienced a true transformation into a track scalpel until this weekend. When the handling **** is turned to track, I experienced a complete transformation - as if the spring rates have changed on the vehicle. No other vehicle has come even remotely close to the flexibility of the 12C.
When I dial the handling to "Normal" the ride quality is as compliant as a Honda Accord. No bone crushing, back breaking jarring like a GT-R. In fact, I believe there was an accelerometer test showing the forces recorded in the cabin were as compliant as a Rolls Royce. This is a car that you can truly drive every day without visiting a chiropractor.
More thoughts to come...
#4
08-18-2013, 06:51 PM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,784
Rep Power: 1006
The unknown factors...
1. Service
There is no service schedule that is listed in the owner's manual. There is nothing to tell the owner what needs to be done, and when. The only information is that service needs to be done yearly, or 10K miles. This includes oil, fluids, alignment, and every other year, the hydraulic suspension needs to be be bleed and overhauled. How much requires a dealership? Not sure - however, I worry when the manual says...
"NOTE: A wheel change must be carried out at a McLaren Dealer. The vehicle could be damaged if it is jacked up incorrectly."
Seriously? I need a dealership to change out a wheel?
On the flip side of the coin, I am happy to hear that there have been software updates - changes to the SSG transmission, the Meridian navigation/bluetooth system, and the power train (HP upgrade to 616) - all free of charge. Was this an initiative by McLaren to draw in potential customers? Time will tell.
When I compare this to PCNA, who failed to acknowledge second gear pop out (996TT) and coolant pipe epoxy failures (all M64 engines), several hundred dollar navigation updates, I feel like Porsche has taken a step back and is resting on their past laurels.
2. Reliability
When I think British sports cars, I think AM, Jaguar, Lotus. And unfortunately, I don't usually associate those brand labels with the Panzer tank known as the 911.
McLaren, however, claims building more than 20 prototypes of the 12C. They report that in addition to simulated testing of the engine and components, the 12C has been subjected to over 1 million road miles of testing. I guess only time will tell.
1. Service
There is no service schedule that is listed in the owner's manual. There is nothing to tell the owner what needs to be done, and when. The only information is that service needs to be done yearly, or 10K miles. This includes oil, fluids, alignment, and every other year, the hydraulic suspension needs to be be bleed and overhauled. How much requires a dealership? Not sure - however, I worry when the manual says...
"NOTE: A wheel change must be carried out at a McLaren Dealer. The vehicle could be damaged if it is jacked up incorrectly."
Seriously? I need a dealership to change out a wheel?
On the flip side of the coin, I am happy to hear that there have been software updates - changes to the SSG transmission, the Meridian navigation/bluetooth system, and the power train (HP upgrade to 616) - all free of charge. Was this an initiative by McLaren to draw in potential customers? Time will tell.
When I compare this to PCNA, who failed to acknowledge second gear pop out (996TT) and coolant pipe epoxy failures (all M64 engines), several hundred dollar navigation updates, I feel like Porsche has taken a step back and is resting on their past laurels.
2. Reliability
When I think British sports cars, I think AM, Jaguar, Lotus. And unfortunately, I don't usually associate those brand labels with the Panzer tank known as the 911.
McLaren, however, claims building more than 20 prototypes of the 12C. They report that in addition to simulated testing of the engine and components, the 12C has been subjected to over 1 million road miles of testing. I guess only time will tell.
#6
08-18-2013, 07:09 PM
Wow, Bob. Just...wow. Absolutely outstanding write-up. Makes me look at the 12C in an entirely different way.
#7
08-18-2013, 07:18 PM
Great writeup! I never really looked into these cars much because they are out of my price range, but after reading some more, they seem like a heck of a lot of car for the money, especially on the used market. If a 2012 can already be had for around $200k, I think these cars will be a great buy in a few years for those of us who can't afford a $200-250k car. The Gallardo SL was my obtainable dream car, but now I'm thinking this is the car I will be lusting after for a while. Not even in the same league as the Gallardo IMO.
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#8
08-18-2013, 07:49 PM
Be prepared to lemon law the 12C. They have an issue with their Oil system seals...drive the car and then let it sit for a few weeks...put some cardboard down...eventually the seal which expands while driving (wont leak) contracts and starts to leak as it sits for period of time. I personally know of 2 that are being recalled under lemon law and owners bought out of the cars. Have pictures of the oil leaks too.
I have also seen them have issues with (displays for the AC temps on both sides, hazing in their headlights 2012-2013, transmission failures on < 2000 mile cars that had to be fully replaced, oil pump replacements, and melted cats)
I love the look, sound, and performance of them, but they will come with issues that aren't fixable yet at this time.
A good friend of mine just got a $267k sticker 2012 New with 10 mile 12C for $190k...great deal for him but death on later resale for others.
I have also seen them have issues with (displays for the AC temps on both sides, hazing in their headlights 2012-2013, transmission failures on < 2000 mile cars that had to be fully replaced, oil pump replacements, and melted cats)
I love the look, sound, and performance of them, but they will come with issues that aren't fixable yet at this time.
A good friend of mine just got a $267k sticker 2012 New with 10 mile 12C for $190k...great deal for him but death on later resale for others.
Last edited by spoiled996; 08-19-2013 at 06:38 PM.
#9
08-18-2013, 07:49 PM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,784
Rep Power: 1006
Thank you all for the comments.
At the price point of $200, the MP4-12C is a serious contender, with many offerings that are not available on the current Porsche platforms.
At the price point of $200, the MP4-12C is a serious contender, with many offerings that are not available on the current Porsche platforms.
#10
08-18-2013, 09:28 PM
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,784
Rep Power: 1006 Be prepared to lemon law the 12C. They have an issue with their Oil system seals...drive the car and then let it sit for a few weeks...put some cardboard down...eventually the seal which expands while driving (wont leak) contracts and starts to leak as it sits for period of time. I personally know of 5 that are being recalled under lemon law and owners bought out of the cars. Have pictures of the oil leaks too.
I have also seen them have issues with (displays for the AC temps on both sides, hazing in their headlights 2012-2013, transmission failures on < 2000 mile cars that had to be fully replaced, oil pump replacements, and melted cats)
I love the look, sound, and performance of them, but they will come with issues that aren't fixable yet at this time.
A good friend of mine just got a $267k sticker 2012 New with 10 mile 12C for $190k...great deal for him but death on later resale for others.
I have also seen them have issues with (displays for the AC temps on both sides, hazing in their headlights 2012-2013, transmission failures on < 2000 mile cars that had to be fully replaced, oil pump replacements, and melted cats)
I love the look, sound, and performance of them, but they will come with issues that aren't fixable yet at this time.
A good friend of mine just got a $267k sticker 2012 New with 10 mile 12C for $190k...great deal for him but death on later resale for others.
#11
08-18-2013, 09:28 PM
Great write up! Im really looking forward to your impressions after a month of ownership. I really feel this platform has a lot of potential. I have heard a lot of bad things about the car locally, they shut her down at the exotics racing rental her in Las Vegas becuase it always breaks. Im really hoping its just there car because I would love to own one down the road. Congrats on the car bud! Enjoy her 
Last edited by yumaverick; 08-18-2013 at 11:45 PM.
#12
08-18-2013, 09:58 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 62
Posts: 6,379
Rep Power: 344
Congrats, look forward to your write ups. Service intervals, as mentioned would concern me. Good luck and where are the pics?
C
C
#14
08-18-2013, 11:31 PM
Well done Bob, excellent purchase. I have not heard anything bad from the 12C on this side of the pond. If an issue arises, I'm sure McLaren will step in.
I think it's excellent customer service to offer the upgrade retrofit free of charge!
I think it's excellent customer service to offer the upgrade retrofit free of charge!
