Are basic bolt on mods worth it?

[utkinpol]

Originally Posted by NorthVan LMAO! that is obvious result of any conversation with illiterate folk - you speak to them about general principles of thermodynamics and all they can reply with are fart jokes. exactly why I did not have any original intent to speak about this topic.

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[utkinpol]

Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911

Now you're talking about variable forced induction which changes everything. If you want your freer flowing exhaust to actually give you power, you need to put some pressure behind the intake. Here is a good product that you might benefit from:

http://www.amazon.com/Mimio-Electric.../dp/B000J5SPHQ

No, I am talking about gas flow processes inside of engine cylinder then valve opens.

[kiet420]

Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911

Now you're talking about variable forced induction which changes everything. If you want your freer flowing exhaust to actually give you power, you need to put some pressure behind the intake. Here is a good product that you might benefit from:

http://www.amazon.com/Mimio-Electric.../dp/B000J5SPHQ

You guys are GREAT!! This thread gets better day by day....

[1999Porsche911]

Here's a copy of my dyno chart for my 99 supercharged C2. You can imagine how it performs on the street. The only mods between runs were using ammonia to wash my windshield and conditioning the leather seats,

[kiet420]

Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911

Here's a copy of my dyno chart for my 99 supercharged C2. You can imagine how it performs on the street. The only mods between runs were using ammonia to wash my windshield and conditioning the leather seats,

WOW! What brand of ammonia did you use??? I gotta wash my car today, I might as well use that on my windshield too!

[NorthVan]

Originally Posted by utkinpol

Sure, why not. Any net results are valid only within that particular dyno anyway. you still have you pre- and post- curves and will see relative overall difference between those curves. And if anybody does not seem to believe that 2+2=4 it does not change overall base rules of arithmetic.

That will do it, I have some work to do.

I think that you missed a post that 1999 made, it outlined a few of the variables. By staying with one operator, one dyno, etc, assuming they are all constants, you are still forgetting about the other stuff. Also read the articles that I posted links to, that way you can see that your basic math equation doesn't apply to these measuring devices.

Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911

Variables that effect dyno results: (not in any particular order)

- Air temperature, pressure and moisture
- Transmission and axle gear oil temperature
- Oil temperature
- Oil viscosity
- Crankcase oil volume
- Coolant temperature
- Fuel temperature (Fuel specific gravity changes)
- Tire size/pressure
- Wheel size/weight
- Force used to strap car to dyno
- Placement of fans
- Transmission gear used for pull (one guy made a chart from a pull in 3rd gear and then made a chart with a 4th gear pull. Customer was ecstatic with the increase in power his car had)
- Accidental or deliberate manipulation of the correction factor (always demand raw data)
- Vehicle weight
- Angle of tires on rollers
- Was the computer reset for the after mod runs?
- Intake temperature
- And many, many more…………………….

If this doesn't get the point across, perhaps you should go grab a pile of wood and measure and cut 12 pieces to 12" and see how many of them are exactly the same...one tape measure, one saw, one operator. Should be perfect right!

[P Diddy]

Originally Posted by NorthVan

I think that you missed a post that 1999 made, it outlined a few of the variables. By staying with one operator, one dyno, etc, assuming they are all constants, you are still forgetting about the other stuff. Also read the articles that I posted links to, that way you can see that your basic math equation doesn't apply to these measuring devices.



If this doesn't get the point across, perhaps you should go grab a pile of wood and measure and cut 12 pieces to 12" and see how many of them are exactly the same...one tape measure, one saw, one operator. Should be perfect right!

you guys miss the point. his point is not that dynos are perfect, but rather that they're possibly the best thing we have to go by. More importantly, the point is that the dyno is at least a mechanical measurement tool, and it's better than a butt dyno.

To use your metaphor, try doing the same exercise but without the benefit of a measuring tape.

[NorthVan]

Originally Posted by P Diddy

you guys miss the point. his point is not that dynos are perfect, but rather that they're possibly the best thing we have to go by. More importantly, the point is that the dyno is at least a mechanical measurement tool, and it's better than a butt dyno.

To use your metaphor, try doing the same exercise but without the benefit of a measuring tape.

Actually the point that is being argued is whether or not a 10-20 hp gain is truly a change that has been produced by the vehicle, or is it due to the variations in the testing conditions.

However, if the argument was whether the dyno is a best tool for measuring a vehicles power when compared to a butt dyno, you are correct that taking away the measuring tape would be the same thing. I have seen people get very accurate results by eye balling the cut though.

[1999Porsche911]

I personnally could care less what a dyno says. If my car is faster in the type of driving I do, say 0 - 100 than it was before the mod, that is proof to me. I can tell you that many mods that produce increased peak hp often decrease the overall quickness of the car. Flatten the power curve and you'll have a drop in performance. Just look at what happens to the TPC supercharger on your Porsche. Power flattens out and you starve to death at high rpms.

I guess its the difference in keyboard racing and real world racing.

[millsjq]

NorthVan, I think you have the point exactly. A repeatable objective method of determining if a mod has any improvment is what most folks are looking for. The plecebo butt dyno does not prove anything. Look how many folks recorded large gains in HP to a intake plenum with their butt dyno but independent dyno testing indicated no gain.

[1999Porsche911]

Originally Posted by millsjq

NorthVan, I think you have the point exactly. A repeatable objective method of determining if a mod has any improvment is what most folks are looking for. The plecebo butt dyno does not prove anything. Look how many folks recorded large gains in HP to a intake plenum with their butt dyno but independent dyno testing indicated no gain.

And who determined whether the BUTT dyno was correct or the mechanical dyno was?

[NorthVan]

Originally Posted by millsjq

NorthVan, I think you have the point exactly. A repeatable objective method of determining if a mod has any improvment is what most folks are looking for. The plecebo butt dyno does not prove anything. Look how many folks recorded large gains in HP to a intake plenum with their butt dyno but independent dyno testing indicated no gain.

Does any repeatable objective method exist?

[kiet420]

Dang, this is still ongoing??? I think everyone had valid points... Let's give it a rest and have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING everyone!!! BTW, wasn't the OP asking about basic bolt on mods???