1 991....2 american Muscle!

[mickfluff]

I read some recent reviews about the new Mustang GT500 (200mph car, mid to upper 3 second to 60 time, great handling etc) with 650hp+ off the show room floor... great stats nearing some super cars performance numbers... Pretty amazing HP and numbers in this mustang that will be selling for about 60K new. Then I kept reading in another magazine that came in by mail about the new Camaro Zl1.... near 600hp and some great numbers as well in performance.....going to be a great dual between Ford and Chevy... this car selling for under 60K.... I have kept up less with the american muscle car war over the years but after reading a bit about these two cars I seemed to get more interested. Then to read about the new Viper due out in a year or so was also good news I thought....from a Porsche guy I have no issue in saying that it is great to see some bad ass american muscle cars rolling out.... For the price of a 991S you can tuck both the GT500 and the Zl1 in the ole garage. Not converting yet but I will be swinging in my local Ford and Chevy dealer in the coming months to see these beasts in the flesh... Before some of you get out the torches, lynch sticks and stones together relax, not making a direct comparison between the 991 and these cars.... but merely making a comment that it is great to read about some serious new model American cars rolling out... The fact you can get the Shelby gt500 and the Camaro ZL1 with a combined HP of 1200HP for the price of 1 991 is just a interesting nugget ... Now if we could see the interiors of both Ford and Chevy take the same leap ahead that would be nice.... both hard to stomach IMO but do still appreciate these cars...

[utkinpol]

if you want car for a track both new z06 and zr1 will be very competitive. but for street driving they prettymuch suck. 997 gt3 outperforms Shelby, as of new camaro - no clue.

sweet spot of 997 car was that it was very versatile - nice for street driving and quite reliable on a track with brakes that do not overheat, gearbox that does not fall apart, etc.

even z06 car needs quite some work to get it to the track-ready shape, oil coolers, brakes, etc.
gt3 car comes ready from a factory. just a HP number does not mean much if car cannot apply those HPs to the ground properly.

[mickfluff]

"just a HP number does not mean much if car cannot apply those HPs to the ground properly.[/quote]"

Based on the below numbers not sure your comment holds up?

ZL1
0-60 4.0 sec. (6speed)
1/4-mile @ 12.1 sec at 119mph
Top Speed @ 180mph plus
Max Grip @ 1.0g
Around the Nurburgring at (7:41.27)
Sporting an aggressive Brembo brake set up I believe...


Mustang

0-60 I think I read 3.8 sec
1/4-mile ? assume it will be under 12...
Max Grip ... again can't recall
Top speed 200+mph (personally never cared much for this stat but its a benchmark used and aero speaking quite a feet to do this)
Around the Nurburgring at 7:35 range some stating...
Believe is also coming with a nice Brembo Brake set up.... these cars are heavy so not expecting them to slow to a stop like a 991 but but enough stopping power to keep them track ready...

Not exactly slouches....and all for 50/60K range isn't half bad....

[ryem3]

When I drove a C63, I thought it was like an expensive Mustang with a star on it. Hard to put a price on refinement, but its easy to recognize when you see it.

[Recalcitrant]

The last car toy i had was an 03 Mustang Cobra. 450hp at the REAR WHEELS. I readily beat up on most cars (inluding 997's) on the street. That being said, I enjoy driving the 997 much more every day. On the track is not a comparison at all. The supercharger on the new Gt500 would be good for some laps, then you'll have to worry about overheating. 7 minutes around the ring is not a 20-30 minute track session. The interior on the Porsche is much nicer. Not even worth comparing. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but supercharger temps have always been an issue on forced induction cars.

[Slik560]

When I start seeing Mustangs and Camaros win GrandAm Rolex or AMLS GT class events [without a whole laundry list of waivers], then I may start looking at them as more than exaggerated verions of the 60's-70's muscle cars. I've owned a lot of those and loved them, but once I got into Mercedes and started looking in earnest at Porsche, I really appreciate the differences. Especially in handling. Horsepower is not everything, unless you spend a lot of time at the drag strip.

That said, the Mustangs/Camaros/Corvettes are probably the best "bang for the buck" (more HP / less cost) but it all comes back to personal tastes. At this stage of the game, I just don't want one of those.

[richard181]

I'm a long time Mustang owner. 70 Boss 302 and currently have an 07 Saleen Parnelli Jones Special Edition that is supercharges to 525 HP. There is little to compare the Mustang to the Porsche except numbers on paper. The cars ride, handle and perform so differently. I know i could get 2 or 3 cars for the price of the Porsche. But they still wont be a Porsche.

[mickfluff]

Regards to HP wars it isn't a war, american muscle has that hands down. 650 stock (I may have read 670?) is insane for 60K and the torque is off the charts... as far as handling I thought the new 991 S Nurburgring'd in mid 7 minute range (7.45?) ..... these cars mentioned are doing similar times. Nurburgring isn't daily handling driving but a benchmark used to show how a car performs at its max...

Again by no means suggesting these cars are at all better or a substitute but more that the gap is closing a bit over the years is all. If my above data is correct the GT500 and the Zl1 have the HP and power over the Porsche and regards to performance where there was never even a comparison one has to admit its getting closer! Now the fact the 991 does a better to 60 time then cars with 500to near 600hp is a marvell in itself...

Now regards to performance stats above I am sure 1 does it with grace , certain a better feel etc (Porsche) and the two others I bet grunt and mash through things but the numbers don't lie and in the past when the Porsche lost on HP or in a straight line they always went to "the twisties" but looks like Ford and Chevy giving lots of cars out there that had always been so much more dominant less places to hide.

Just saying, I think its great to see a good ole fashion american muscle war and tossing in a german power house like Porsche just for fun discussion makes for a good thread....

I can not wait till the 991 releases the turbo and the GT cars (GT2 and GT3 etc...) in a few years....

As noted above, the supercharged cars fading at the track due to overheat etc... totally agree, but if you have both the camaro and the Mustang just rotate the cars... Remember its a two for 1 thread....(yes I am kidding)

[keninirvine]

Originally Posted by ryem3

Hard to put a price on refinement, but its easy to recognize when you see it.

Well stated! Actually, it is when you see it AND when you experience it.

[Docofthebay]

I went thru the same mental process before buying my 997s. The camaro and mustang both had great numbers when outfitted the high output engines, but 90% of the Camaros and Mustangs are the garden variety ones. You will see 10 or more of each every time you go somewhere and most will be driven by pimply faced teenagers. I wanted some exclusivity to go along with my ride. Since we actually spend very little of our car's time exploring their upper limits, I wanted one that was awesome all of the time, no matter the speed.

[Slik560]

Originally Posted by Docofthebay

I went thru the same mental process before buying my 997s. The camaro and mustang both had great numbers when outfitted the high output engines, but 90% of the Camaros and Mustangs are the garden variety ones. You will see 10 or more of each every time you go somewhere and most will be driven by pimply faced teenagers. I wanted some exclusivity to go along with my ride. Since we actually spend very little of our car's time exploring their upper limits, I wanted one that was awesome all of the time, no matter the speed.

Excellent! Could not have said it better.

[NC 997]

Originally Posted by mickfluff

For the price of a 991S you can tuck both the GT500 and the Zl1 in the ole garage..

Not likely.. the Ford dealer here is planning to add $20-25K to the MSRP for the first series of new GT500s. I'm sure the local Chevy dealer will follow suit with the new ZL1.

I'm sure that eventually both cars will be able to be purchased at MSRP, but with all the hype, that's likely going to be a while. It'll be a long time before a guy will be able to 'deal' on one for less than MSRP.

Here's a pretty good write-up on the new Mustang.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-gt500-feature

A fella I know works at one of the Chevy plants. He said they started producing ZL1s at the GM Oshawa plant in Ontario last week. They should start showing up at the dealers sometime in mid-March.

Short clip on the ZL1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FygVm...yer_embedded#!

[mikegr]

Mustangs are muscle cars, not sports cars. Big, heavy, bad aerodynamics, amazing sound, fancy cars anyway.
I guess it takes 500+ hp for a Mustang to beat a 997S and this only on drag race. So much wasted hp... But since there are many people buying them, i guess i may dont understand their philosophy...

[mickfluff]

"bad aerodynamics"

new mustang brakes the 200mph barrier... I believe it takes some serious Aero dynamics to do such a thing on a production car....

[mickfluff]

Not sure I will ever be a Camaro guy but that Zl1 clip is telling that Chevy is now in the game... with a ring time in the neighborhood of a 991!

58K buy in, 580hp, gobs of Torque, 0-60 3.8, and ring time of 7.45??????..... Much performance for the money is a statement I am not sure that can be challenged..... The mullet revolution is ON people!

Thanks for posting...

Eager to see a real life review by the same group on the new Mustang.... eager to see if they bring the car up to the 200mph barrier claimed...

Originally Posted by NC 997

Not likely.. the Ford dealer here is planning to add $20-25K to the MSRP for the first series of new GT500s. I'm sure the local Chevy dealer will follow suit with the new ZL1.

I'm sure that eventually both cars will be able to be purchased at MSRP, but with all the hype, that's likely going to be a while. It'll be a long time before a guy will be able to 'deal' on one for less than MSRP.

Here's a pretty good write-up on the new Mustang.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-gt500-feature

A fella I know works at one of the Chevy plants. He said they started producing ZL1s at the GM Oshawa plant in Ontario last week. They should start showing up at the dealers sometime in mid-March.

Short clip on the ZL1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FygVmlmhrO4&feature=player_embedded#!