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I'm not Stas - but going back through the thread I hadn't posted the definitive guide to camshaft adjuster bolts. Here it is:
BAD BOLT
GOOD BOLT
And to answer the next question that's certain to come: No - you can't just replace the bad bolts with good bolts since they won't come out of the adjusters. Tried that. Doesn't work. Loctite most likely the reason.
If you have this failure, what are the chances it won't bend a valve? Also, what kind of damage are people seeing from the bolt heads banging around in their engine?
If you have this failure, what are the chances it won't bend a valve? Also, what kind of damage are people seeing from the bolt heads banging around in their engine?
Unknown, and everything from replacing the adjusters to replacing the engine.
ANY failure is going to cost you more than the ~$2,600 that it cost (me) at the Porsche dealer to do WC-22 preemptively. It has a very real possibility to cost you 10X that amount (engine.) If the bolts or parts bounce down into the chain gallery (very possible) and get caught in the chains and sprockets - it's new engine time.
I spent several hourse last night reading this important thread. Many thanks to Deilenberger and others (also those on Rennlist) for following this problem so assiduously.
I am about to purchase a Panamera and after the cathartic tour of this and other threads shall now restrict my choice to CPO vehicles. This will only be my second Porsche. My last one was a 1987 924S which I traded for a Prius in 2010 after 268k enjoyable miles done all over the USA. The European Autobahns are something else!
Well, as I documented on here about 2 months ago, I encountered this issue and repaired it (luckily, the dealership covered $2250 of the $2750, even though it was mine for over 24 hours.) But tonight on the way home, a guy slides out of his lane directly into mine and I'm pretty sure the CS is totalled. The important thing is that I walked away with a bruise and some sore muscles.
My dilemma here is that I absolutely want another CS, CGTS or CTT...but, I am nervous about buying another in light of the issue discussed in this thread. Especially frustrating since mine was just fixed!
My question here is...are all GTS and TT models free of this issue? Also, are all 2012 and newer free of this issue? Thank you and drive safe!!!
Well, as I documented on here about 2 months ago, I encountered this issue and repaired it (luckily, the dealership covered $2250 of the $2750, even though it was mine for over 24 hours.) But tonight on the way home, a guy slides out of his lane directly into mine and I'm pretty sure the CS is totalled. The important thing is that I walked away with a bruise and some sore muscles.
My dilemma here is that I absolutely want another CS, CGTS or CTT...but, I am nervous about buying another in light of the issue discussed in this thread. Especially frustrating since mine was just fixed!
My question here is...are all GTS and TT models free of this issue? Also, are all 2012 and newer free of this issue? Thank you and drive safe!!!
Man, glad you're OK as that looks like a pretty good shot. It is definitely totaled based on what I'm seeing in that photo.
To my knowledge the aluminum bolt issue is in the early 958 V8s, so S, GTS, & Turbo. Late 2010 builds that were 2011 model year cars and someone even mentioned that late 2011 builds that are early 2012 model year cars may have the bad bolts. You could go older, like I did and get into a 957 Turbo S for probably about the same money or go a little newer, like 2013 to be sure you're out of the range, or since you've had the repair done once already, go CPO, or factor the repair cost into the purchase price while you're negotiating the deal since you know the #s first hand.
Pete is correct. That's the range that is effected - basically ALL late 2010 through ALL 2011 and perhaps a few early 2012 - V8's.
There also may be a similar issue with the V6 gasoline engines - but the breaking of the bolts is much less frequent with them than the V8. I believe the recalls of Cayennes in China and Japan for the Variocam adjusters involved both the V6 and V8 engines.
FWIW - BMW used adjusters made by the same company that made the Porsche ones - they also had the aluminum bolts - and BMW issued a recall on ALL the engines with those bolts and replaced the adjusters. I think that's documented somewhere above.
On the V8 engines it takes just a few minutes to check if the engine has the questionable bolts or not - so anyone considering buying one would be well advised to check before buying the vehicle. If it does have the bad bolts - then that should be taken into account during negotiations. Figure on around $2,700 to have a dealer do WC-22 (and that's including about twice the labor time that WC-22 allowed the dealers to charge.)
Pete is correct. That's the range that is effected - basically ALL late 2010 through ALL 2011 and perhaps a few early 2012 - V8's.
There also may be a similar issue with the V6 gasoline engines - but the breaking of the bolts is much less frequent with them than the V8. I believe the recalls of Cayennes in China and Japan for the Variocam adjusters involved both the V6 and V8 engines.
FWIW - BMW used adjusters made by the same company that made the Porsche ones - they also had the aluminum bolts - and BMW issued a recall on ALL the engines with those bolts and replaced the adjusters. I think that's documented somewhere above.
On the V8 engines it takes just a few minutes to check if the engine has the questionable bolts or not - so anyone considering buying one would be well advised to check before buying the vehicle. If it does have the bad bolts - then that should be taken into account during negotiations. Figure on around $2,700 to have a dealer do WC-22 (and that's including about twice the labor time that WC-22 allowed the dealers to charge.)
It looks like there is a very slight possibility that a 2012 Turbo could fall in my lap. That said, is there an accurate date/VIN check that would help mitigate my concern? Or is it just best practice to take it to my trusted shop and let them check the bolts? Sorry, if that was already been covered...
It looks like there is a very slight possibility that a 2012 Turbo could fall in my lap. That said, is there an accurate date/VIN check that would help mitigate my concern? Or is it just best practice to take it to my trusted shop and let them check the bolts? Sorry, if that was already been covered...
If you're incapable of removing the oil fill cap and using a dental mirror to look at the bolt heads - then yes - I'd suggest asking your shop to check. You might point them to THIS thread so they know what they're looking for.
And I know of no "accurate date/VIN check" that would tell you if you should be concerned or not.
So I was able to take pictures of those bolts on my cayenne turbo with 89k miles. One coming loose. See attached cloture showing the loose one and a nonry seated one for comparison. Dealer quoting $4k to address. I'm afraid to drive it. They mentioned one with bad engine damage in the shop now. This is a clear safety issue and perhaps more common than we think. Do we even know no one lost their life for an accident caused by this? Porsche needs to recall those cars if they care about customer safety. Many people out there
have no clue.
So I was able to take pictures of those bolts on my cayenne turbo with 89k miles. One coming loose. See attached cloture showing the loose one and a nonry seated one for comparison. Dealer quoting $4k to address. I'm afraid to drive it. They mentioned one with bad engine damage in the shop now. This is a clear safety issue and perhaps more common than we think. Do we even know no one lost their life for an accident caused by this? Porsche needs to recall those cars if they care about customer safety. Many people out there have no clue.
Kawad - that seems high for that repair. The WC-22 workshop campaign gives roughly 4 hours allowed time for a Porsche mechanic to swap out the camshaft adjusters as part of the campaign.
My dealer wanted 8 hours - and figuring I'd rather not dicker over it - I agreed. My total estimate including all parts was about $2,600. That was for both adjusters remove and replace. I think your dealer is being greedy - and perhaps talking to them might reduce the price. Or ask around for a good independent who knows what the job involves and has the camshaft timing tools.
You didn't mention where you're from. If it's from the US - it would be a very good thing if you reported this to NHTSA-DOT.
If you care to also private message me - besides reporting it using the NHTSA on-line form, I'd ask that you send me the details and copies of the photos, and I'll make sure they get to the person at DOT who is handling the investigation.
I agree - Porsche Cars North-America should extend this as a recall for ALL the vehicles with these bolts. They did in China and Japan. And I wouldn't even start your engine until these are replaced. It appears failure is imminent.
One other question - the VIN#, and/or production date of your Cayenne?
Well, insurance check cleared and I've (hopefully) put this issue behind me by buying a 2013 S. I contemplated getting another 11 or 12 and factoring in a pre-emptive repair, but found that money was better spent on a newer MY and not having to worry about it.
Good luck to all of you with this issue and I'm holding onto my receipt for the portion of the repair I paid in case Porsche AG ever makes it right with us!
As Don mentioned, we would all greatly appreciate it if you could report your failure to the NHTSA at 1-888-327-4236 or you can fill out a form online at https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/.
Porsche needs to step up and fix this issue before someone gets injured/killed.
Also if you could post or PM me your VIN that would be terrific. I'm putting together a list of all the cars that experience the failure.
Kawad - that seems high for that repair. The WC-22 workshop campaign gives roughly 4 hours allowed time for a Porsche mechanic to swap out the camshaft adjusters as part of the campaign.
My dealer wanted 8 hours - and figuring I'd rather not dicker over it - I agreed. My total estimate including all parts was about $2,600. That was for both adjusters remove and replace. I think your dealer is being greedy - and perhaps talking to them might reduce the price. Or ask around for a good independent who knows what the job involves and has the camshaft timing tools.
You didn't mention where you're from. If it's from the US - it would be a very good thing if you reported this to NHTSA-DOT.
If you care to also private message me - besides reporting it using the NHTSA on-line form, I'd ask that you send me the details and copies of the photos, and I'll make sure they get to the person at DOT who is handling the investigation.
I agree - Porsche Cars North-America should extend this as a recall for ALL the vehicles with these bolts. They did in China and Japan. And I wouldn't even start your engine until these are replaced. It appears failure is imminent.
One other question - the VIN#, and/or production date of your Cayenne?
Thanks for reporting it.
Porsche of St. Louis quoted $3300 of parts!!! and 8 hours of labor at $1200. Not sure if being a Turbo has any bearing on the price of the part?!!! seems excessive for a gear!!! service manager asked where I got those pictures at and that his technicians did not see that bolt coming out when they looked. Now I feel like he was trying to say I am making it up. Very Unhappy. Definitely reporting to NHTSA. This has to be a recall.
Kawad - that seems high for that repair. The WC-22 workshop campaign gives roughly 4 hours allowed time for a Porsche mechanic to swap out the camshaft adjusters as part of the campaign.
My dealer wanted 8 hours - and figuring I'd rather not dicker over it - I agreed. My total estimate including all parts was about $2,600. That was for both adjusters remove and replace. I think your dealer is being greedy - and perhaps talking to them might reduce the price. Or ask around for a good independent who knows what the job involves and has the camshaft timing tools.
You didn't mention where you're from. If it's from the US - it would be a very good thing if you reported this to NHTSA-DOT.
If you care to also private message me - besides reporting it using the NHTSA on-line form, I'd ask that you send me the details and copies of the photos, and I'll make sure they get to the person at DOT who is handling the investigation.
I agree - Porsche Cars North-America should extend this as a recall for ALL the vehicles with these bolts. They did in China and Japan. And I wouldn't even start your engine until these are replaced. It appears failure is imminent.
One other question - the VIN#, and/or production date of your Cayenne?
Thanks for reporting it.
Dilenberger,
for some reason I am unable to send PM, may be a new member thing. if you can PM your email, I will send the information you requested.
12-29-2016, 09:00 AM
