Other Japanese SupercarsToyota Supra, Honda NSX, Maxda RX-7, Lexus IS-F/LF-A etc.
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If you'd like to compare a Shop built T/A car to a Factory built race car, then you're right. If you'd like to compare Factory built vs. Factory built....look to a JGTC NSX...
Fundamentally better setup car: Lighter, lower, mid engine, weight dist, lower Cd, etc....granted it's way down on power and brakes...but the question wasn't about a stock NSX.
I'm not an NSX "fanboy" at all, just answering the question asked. If you'd like to argue that a 911 is a fundamentally better setup car, by all means. I really don't care either way, I think they are both great cars, albeit the NSX is underrated as a drivers car.
Good debate. I'll discuss both the track and the street.
You have it just the opposite regarding the racing cars.
The Cup Cars are spec cars, production based, approx. 420hp, gutted interiors, and are essentially production racers for sale by the factory
The T/A car was built with essentially NO restrictions except no NOS and a db limit at LS, a wide-body kit, aerodynamic aides, basically "the works" to get around the track as fast as possible.
The JGTC NSX is a purpose built factory race car. Might as well throw in the Porsche Spyders and LeMans winning GT1, let alone the RS-Rs. Until the JGTC cars compete in LeMans, I don't know a way to compare lap times.
So to be fair, the spread for 30-some cars in the Cup series at Laguna was 1:28s to 1:34s. The NSX hit a 1:31 and the others mid 1:30s.
So let's talk about the "better" set-up:
1. Lighter - yes, but add larger tires and brakes and then the modern safety standards of the GT3, it would get more interesting. And the difference insignificant. The Cup cars are very light.
2. Lower - lower roofline. But lower CG - I'm doubtful. That dohc (heavier up top) V6 motor seems to sit higher than the boxer-6 in the Porsche.
3. Mid-engine/weight distribution - yes, mid-engine is ideal, but based on Porsche's success against Ferrari in ALMS, it seems it's only detrimental in some areas. But not nearly enough to make them uncompetitive, at all.
4. Lower Cd - .32 per Acura, multiply by the frontal and I'll bet the Porsche looks even better, if not superior. Add larger tires/brakes, I bet the NSX loses. Whichever ends up better, probably not significant.
The bolt-on supercharger worked very well for the Speed GT car, driven by one of the best drivers in SCCA, but a lot of development went into it as well.
So my conclusion, if you want to run comparable lap times to a GT3, you're going to need to heavily mod the NSX, upgrade EVERYTHING (cooling, brakes, tires), if you go FI to a significant level, re-do the motor and due to age, the suspension.
So it's a great car, but IMO, the Porsche is the clear choice.
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Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
Modded NSX's are very underrated. It doesn't take that much to get them to perform extremely well. That includes braking, suspension, and power.
A good friends supercharged NSX with Wilwoods(not my first choice), Tein's, and a supercharger got a raving review from a factory C6R driver at Mid America. He actually said it's the closest thing he's ever driven to his C6R. That is a pretty simple setup on that car, you can go as far as you like with the NSX.
And getting an NSX to 2800lbs with full interior is easy. There are a few weekend track cars(still street legal) down to 2400lbs wet(including cage). Tough to argue against that.
I'm not here to say it's better then a GT3, I'm just standing up for the car that will probably get knocked for no good reason 9 out of 10 times by people who swing on Pcars..
There are a few weekend track cars(still street legal) down to 2400lbs wet(including cage). Tough to argue against that.
Good points, but somewhat odd an unnamed C6R factory driver (they are famous after all) said a mid-engine S/C production based car felt like a 427ci front-engine purpose-built race car.
Can you provide some proof regarding the above? Even gutted with carbon fiber body panels, I can't see 600+lbs with cage. But my knowledge of weight reduction may be lacking (for cars that is).
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Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
Good points, but somewhat odd an unnamed C6R factory driver (they are famous after all) said a mid-engine S/C production car felt like a 427ci front-engine race car.
Can you provide some proof regarding the above? Even gutted with carbon fiber body panels, I can't see 600+lbs with cage. But my knowledge of weight reduction may be lacking (for cars that is).
You can believe me or not, doesn't matter, I have no need to lie, and I do not lie. I wasn't there, what I have is the account by the owner of the car/my good friend(also an honest person). Yes the C6R is a front engine car, but I'm sure the weight distribution isn't that of a FR car.
The lightest street legal car I've heard of weighed in at 23xx lbs and resides in Wisconsin. However if you'd like a full thread about a full track car being built for someone(with weights in the thread if my memory serves me right), here you go: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108879
And getting an NSX to 2800lbs with full interior is easy.
Not sure if it is that easy to shed 350+ lbs on a 2002-2005 model or 180+ lbs on 1991-1996. Everything on that car is aluminum. I can only think of removing spare tire, tire tools, engine cover, trunk carpets, floor mats, antenna motor, covert to light weight seats, light weight battery, and ???. IMO to achieve that 2800 lbs weight, airbags, a/c system, bumber, insulations on interior and undercarriage will need to be removed. If so that's not easy.
Not sure if it is that easy to shed 350+ lbs on a 2002-2005 model or 180+ lbs on 1991-1996. Everything on that car is aluminum. I can only think of removing spare tire, tire tools, engine cover, trunk carpets, floor mats, antenna motor, covert to light weight seats, light weight battery, and ???. IMO to achieve that 2800 lbs weight, airbags, a/c system, bumber, insulations on interior and undercarriage will need to be removed. If so that's not easy.
I maintain that with the usual mods and what you have stated in your post, the 180+ lbs is pretty easy to shed to get to 2800lbs(I should have mentioned 2800lbs on a non targa car is easy, it's doable on a targa, but will take a little more effort).
Check this thread for weights and mods. You'll see that a fairly standard list of mods most do to their NSX's are represented, and you'll see the weights with them. In the first post he has added the weight of a supercharger, but has some offset as well. In any case, you'll get the idea.
Very interesting stuff. And it's an impressive platform to build on.
While it's neat to have a high performance one-off, or something unique, a factory Cup Car, Comp Coupe or even an ACR is a wiser choice. The ACR particularly, makes it look like a no-brainer. Street legal, mid 1:30s on street tires at Laguna, fully tunable suspension and aero kit.
Better support, far less time and less money spent overall if doing a frame-off re-do, more initial racing options (vs. build to suit), far better marketability and resale. There has been a good market for used Cup Cars.
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Silver SRT-8 413whp/432wtq 12.71 @ 111mph
413rwhp/432rwtq San Jose Autos Examiner Soak Magazine Autos Section The "Andy Rooney" of cars.
Very interesting stuff. And it's an impressive platform to build on.
While it's neat to have a high performance one-off, or something unique, a factory Cup Car, Comp Coupe or even an ACR is a wiser choice. The ACR particularly, makes it look like a no-brainer. Street legal, mid 1:30s on street tires at Laguna, fully tunable suspension and aero kit.
Better support, far less time and less money spent overall if doing a frame-off re-do, more initial racing options (vs. build to suit), far better marketability and resale. There has been a good market for used Cup Cars.
I never said which was better or that it is the best choice.. just that it's a legitimate option for those who may be interested. And it isn't necessary to build an all out race car out of an NSX to embarrass others on the track. It can easily be a very comfortable street car that outperforms on the track. In any case, I like all cars and work on all cars, I just happen to have an NSX.
both races nsx has faster lap times then gt3 =)
now imagine the nsx with more power!!! As much as i love porches, if the nsx had more power, it would walk all over gt3 gt2 and gt3rs, and lets not forget the nsx-r has technology thats over 8 years old!!!
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Attention whore Cooper S!!! -_-
Last edited by Type R 564; 12-20-2008 at 08:01 PM.
I have a feeling that the TA nsx is the black one....I'm kinda familiar with it. Keep in mind that the time it put downwas not representative of its potential. It was basically it's second time on the track. It's first time it did a 1:50 at BW only a few days earlier. The car just did a 1:47 with yokohama A048 tires. How fast will it go at laguna? We will find out.
mikey
Back to the subject at hand.... NSX or GT3 for a track car.
I am a PCA instructor and own a 2000 NSX. I have driven both on the track ALOT!
The GT3 was good to go. Drive to the track, put my helmet on and go.
The NSX was good to go - for the first season. Then installed brake ducting and track pads. JRZ dampers and Hypercoil springs 600/500 (same as the Type R). Added bigger sway bars and Toyo R888s. Headers, Tubi Exhaust and on, and on.
The GT3 was good to go and still can turn faster lap times.
With all my goodies on the NSX, I can lap just about any 911 at the PCA events - EXCEPT the GT3s and 997TTs.
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