Hey all,

Have a question or two about the 997 GT3...

Currently I drive a 2006 m3 and love everything about it - the power, the handling, the balance, and predictability. I will always have this car and do not plan on getting rid of it.

Here is my dilemma: I need MORE! Ideally I'd like more speed, tighter suspension, less weight, and better braking - but without sacrificing that much refinement. One option is to just start modding my M3 - but that will sacrifice any hope of keeping the car long term as a collector car - and of course do away with the refinement that the car already has. Plus, let's face it ... by the time I am done modding it, I'll have sunk $45k into mods and demolished any longevity of the vehicle.

I have always been a fan of Porsches - love the look & lines & refinement of them, but there are a couple of negatives that I've learned of while researching the 911 - most of these have to do with the balance of the car and having the engine hanging out over the rear axle.

Everyone that I've spoken with that I'd consider to be a typical non-aggressive driver has reported that they love the handling of their 911. However, it seems like every review I have ever read goes back and forth between them being the most fantastic handling car ever and the most scary, harry, unpredictable car ever. And to make matters more complicated, a friend of mine who races semi-pro does track events in 911's and he has said that they are the most sweet car on the face of the earth.

WTF?

Here's what I gather from that:

non-aggressive drivers: the car handles great, cuz you're not pushing it.
aggressive drivers: once you push the car to its limit, it's scary as hell.
pro drivers: these guys KNOW how to push the car to its limit and handle it beautifully, thus making it sweet.

Is that about right? I would put myself at the high end of aggressive in terms of my driving style... regularly putting my M through its paces and I occasionally enjoy a good Track Event. HOWEVER - I know I'm NOT a pro, and I don't really want a car that is going to scare me to death when I drive it at the edge.

I realize the only ultimate way to decide if the car is right for me is to go test drive it - but I can't exactly walk up to the Porsche dealer and hop in a GT3 and drive it to this level of aggression... I'd be hauled off the lot in a heartbeat.

Your Thoughts/Advice?

 

I think I can answer this question for you since I've had my m3 for quite some time, modded it throughout the ages to it's final stage. The M3 is an awesome car and still is in many forms. Since you already own the m3, I'm sure you know it's abilities.

The GT3 is in EVERY way just like an m3 but just imagine having the sports button always turned on and with about 100 extra hp! I always tell people it's like my m3 in terms of throttle response but just more of everything. The brakes are harder if you stand on them and the turn in is very crisp. With the GT3 suspension set on normal, it's already a very firm ride but nothing you can't live with if you are used to driving around in modded cars that are lowered. Compared to the GT3, the stock m3 is like a caddy however so if you like soft rides forget about this car.

I've never tracked the GT3 but the tail seems to want to swing out a bit more on hard turns compared to my m3. (This could be just because I'm more familiar with the m3's handling) In no way am I a professional driver but for some reason I feel more planted and secure in my m3 when pushed hard.

If you are buying this car solely on performance you can't lose in any way as this car performs exaclty like how it is advertised. However if you are buying this car for the "WOW" factor as I call it, then it's not the right car - at least not here in CA. I drove this to dinner with my g/f and we parked behind an Audi R8. Not a single person looked at it since face it, to most women it's just another Porsche. However if you want guy's attention, buy it

In response to your last part of the question, I NEVER drove or rode in a GT3 before I bought it and I think that was my problem. My suggestion to you is to just find a local board member to give you a ride. Not many will throw you their keys but just riding in the pass. seat with a good driver and you will see many of the strong points to the GT3 right away. The exhaust note is intoxicating at WOT and with a good driver, I'm sure it can give you a big smile. That is the best way to experience the car unless you can convince the dealer to let you drive it.


g'luck
rick

 

Thanks for the response s4play - that's really really helpful and provides a lot of the information I was looking for.

Sounds like the back end may not be all that wild until you're pushing the car to 9/10ths or 10/10ths?

Also - great advice about finding a local person to take me out for a spin - hadn't thought of that.

 

alright...I've had a lot of experience in M3's including several previous E36's, including Time trials and BMW CCA race events. The M3 will always feel more planted and stable , this is because of the more equal weight distrubution and the inherent built in understeer of the car. When you have more "push" the car will feel more stable. On the M3 you can get away with a lot more in terms of driver skill and involvement. The GT3 is the exact opposite, th car still feels stable at all speeds but you will need to be mindful on all the driver inputs, the car will command a lot more refinement from the driver, especially driven hard. The car will be stable, but you can easily disrupt that stability to your advantage. If you push the GT3, the nature of the car will become more neutral.

All of this comes from all my experience with both cars on and off the track, racing and street driving, not like some people who just drive on the street and so called "mod their cars" and claim to know how the car handles. I am by no means a profesional driver, but I have had quite a bit of seat time.

 

Awesome description - so the more you push it, the car becomes progressively less stable - until you reach that point when it clicks and you learn how the car responds and you are able to predict its behavior in corners, at which point it becomes a complete work of art? (which is probably why the pro racer that I talked to about it said he thinks its the best thing since sliced bread... )

Sounds like if I take the time to learn its behavior - starting slow until I can predict it, the way I did going from FWD in my GTI to RWD in my M3 - then I'll manage just fine.

 

If you love EVERYTHING about E46M3, you will find the GT3 a very strange car.

It has more hp, but at very high rpm. Less than 7k, I find the car slow and boring.

Balance: not well balanced at all. You have to make the car do what you want it to do. The M3 will do things for you. The GT3 you have to coax it into doing things.

Brakes: BMW has no brakes and yes, I am also a bimmer head with quite a few M cars.

Predictability: it’s not very predictable at all until you understand it’s language. Took me a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time and total of 5 GT3’s before I start to love and trust it. And by seat time, I have 90,000 miles on GT3 chassis and way over 100k miles if you add 996c2 and c4s.

You can mod the M3 to wazoo, but for the same amount of money, it will never compete well with a properly set up GT3. Based on your post, you understood this well already.

911 is only stable when under throttle. You will learn this quickly after a few spins. You will never figure out how to drive 911’s until you spin them a few times. I mean it. And hopefully you spin on track and not on the fwy

“normal” driving, ANY car is stable. Once pushed, the character of rear engine dynamic will show. I don’t want to make the car sound like a killer. It’s stable and easy to drive. But when you try to push it a bit, it doesn’t behave like most other cars. It is not scary, you just need to spend time to learn it. But those who says it’s the best handling car out there clearly haven’t driven much. Drive a lotus exige/elise, you will find that 911 really handles poorly. 911 can handle well, but it’s by far NOT the best handling car in the world. But it’s that strange characteristic that makes 911 charming.

aggressive drivers: once you push the car to its limit, it's scary as hell.
⇒ this is only true for aggressive drivers who push without spending the time to learn the car.

pro drivers: these guys KNOW how to push the car to its limit and handle it beautifully, thus making it sweet.
=> some pro’s really don’t like the way 911’s drive.




Is that about right? I would put myself at the high end of aggressive in terms of my driving style... regularly putting my M through its paces and I occasionally enjoy a good Track Event. HOWEVER - I know I'm NOT a pro, and I don't really want a car that is going to scare me to death when I drive it at the edge.

⇒ hard to say. Since we don’t what your idea is aggressive and you don’t have an established lap time in the M3, hard to predict if the car will scare you to death at the limit. But if you are patient take some time to learn the car, it’s not a scary car.

I realize the only ultimate way to decide if the car is right for me is to go test drive it - but I can't exactly walk up to the Porsche dealer and hop in a GT3 and drive it to this level of aggression... I'd be hauled off the lot in a heartbeat.
⇒ two ppl I know test drove 996gt3, drove off the lot and promptly crashed them. One didn’t make through the 2nd turn.

 

Bringing a little reality back into it - I admire that!!

Thanks for the detailed write up - this is truly interesting to me.

 

As a former M3 driver, this is a great thread. I've always thought of the GT3 as likely the closest thing Porsche has to an M3, so it's good to read about the comparison!

 

The driving and behavioral characteristics of both cars have been very well discussed in this thread. Not much to add but I would go to the component of "down the road". I mean the modding features of these cars. I say this because you referred to what you've spent in modding your M3 so you go for it. I love to mod. I can not leave it alone ever.

The M3 IMO is much more ammenable to mod a make big power.
In my area there are several beasts tuned by Active Autowerke. M3 with SC'ing and putting 550 rwhp. There are special things in the cooker for the new M3 as I've been told.

No matter what I still love my GT3. That car to me has enterred a level of enjoyment I've never experienced. I also must say that I do enjoy the M5 but they are apples and oranges.

Good luck in selecting,
GT3Ranger

 

I had an E46 M3 for 5 years and it was a great car. It did everything well. The GT3 is more of a track focused car. If you want to take it out for a weekend drive up the hills its great. Dinner with the wife, good. But as a daily driver, not so good.

The M3 is luxurious compared to the GT3. The M3 makes you look good on the track. The GT3 commands respect or it will make you look like a fool on track. I thought I was (and was told by others) that I was one of the smoothest track drivers while in my M3. The GT3 revealed that I some way to go to be as smooth as I was in the M3.

The GT3 loves to be pushed hard. Drive it well and it will reward you in such a way that you will think it's the greatest car in the world. The easiest way to put it is that the GT3 has a more narrow spectrum of the "Sweet Spot" where the M3 is more wide, hence easier to drive for more people.

After 2 years in a GT3, I drove an E46 M3 the other day on track and it is amazing how much more soft, slower and a higher center of gravity it has. If I could have both, I would. If I could only have one, it's the GT3 everytime.

 

Adding my 2cents FWIW.

I also have a lot of seat time in the Bimmers, and the 911 doesn't have the sweet balance of a 3, but the M3 is no match in terms of driving experience IMO (yes, I've owned and driven several of them including heavily modded). The GT3 is a very special car and I have to disagree w/ mooty about it being boring under 7k. The car fits like a glove and you feel will feel like one with it -- clearly a product of generations of refinement. Steering feel and exhaust note are to die for.

You definitely cannot drive it like your M3 in terms of technique, and I'm still learning the ins and outs of driving the 911. If you push this car and don't know what you're doing, it will bite you. There's no stability control safety net so you definitely have to be cognizant of that on the street. For example, I don't drive my GT3 as hard on the street as I drove my RS4 which will have you looking like hero with minimal effort (esp. up here in the Pacific NW where it rains a lot). But even in the rain, I far prefer my GT3. The overall experince if fantastic.

 

Do not be afraid of the GT3, be respectful. I drive my car aggresively and I drive it sideways from time to time, and it has never snapped on me. It has fantastic grip when the tires are warm, and when it gets sideways it's predictable and very controllable.

The secret to not spinning a GT3 is to be smoooooth. Don't hammer the gas, don't lift suddenly in corners, don't yank the wheel around, and it will reward you with deep, manageable handling, even when you're driving out a side window. It's a car that doesn't suffer fools well, but rewards competence like few others can.

If you like to drive like a cowboy, then even the M3 is dangerous. However, if you want to drive aggressively but intelligently, you will totally fall in love with the GT3.

 

^ I have to just say, these are some great responses to owning a GT3.

I've had many "special" cars in the past but never been in a GT3. My M3 was a great DD, the Elise was the ultimate handling car EVER, but the GT3 has always caught my eye.... speaking of which I just got rid of my G55 (not close I know) and am in need of a third car, practical or not.

 

This GT3 is the first car I have had that impresses me MORE all the time. I just cant get enough of this car. Looks driving etc etc. Just amazing.
for qualifiers for Ginsu Tim I have had in the last year
335i
Z4M
and my DD X5 4.8iS

 

I still have my 06 M3 just like you and I can't see myself selling it just yet because of all the mods. However the GT3 is a totally different kind of car. If possible enjoy both at the same time.