Porsches are a bit of a rip-off
#62
05-29-2014, 01:45 PM
That is also why I like the 911 or for that matter also the 981. It's not a car that say "look at me!". It's understated, below the radar, but still able to give the driver a "special" feeling. That's what a sportscar is about.
There are many great sportscars out there, but the 911 is in a class of its own when it comes to a daily driveable sportscar. A big part of that, is that it isn't a rare or "special" car...
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#63
05-29-2014, 02:22 PM
With "nothing special" I meant that it is not a rare car. Something you don't see every day.
That is also why I like the 911 or for that matter also the 981. It's not a car that say "look at me!". It's understated, below the radar, but still able to give the driver a "special" feeling. That's what a sportscar is about.
There are many great sportscars out there, but the 911 is in a class of its own when it comes to a daily driveable sportscar. A big part of that, is that it isn't a rare or "special" car...
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That is also why I like the 911 or for that matter also the 981. It's not a car that say "look at me!". It's understated, below the radar, but still able to give the driver a "special" feeling. That's what a sportscar is about.
There are many great sportscars out there, but the 911 is in a class of its own when it comes to a daily driveable sportscar. A big part of that, is that it isn't a rare or "special" car...
Sent from my iPad using 6SpeedOnline
. And back to where I grew up (Belgium), you do not see a Porsche in a week unless you spend time in a few very affluent areas. I am going off on a tangent but let's not take a 911 for granted and imagine you need a McLaren to drive something 'special'.
#64
05-29-2014, 02:28 PM
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If everyone would just accept that a C2S (just for example) really costs about $125 to $130K for a nice configuration and not the 98K base fantasy they wouldn't get so wigged out about it and feeling that they are "ripped off". It's a perception problem about the cost of the car.. and not understanding the true price category..
I have a very low-optioned 2014 Carrera S Cab that is my 5th Porsche. It has the base seats in it and I just can't help but think for $ 114 MSRP it should have power to and fro, but I have a manual adjuster there. And while the base radio is OK, they could not give us something as pedestrian as an XM module with it? I understand the 'true price' very well, its called the most profitable car company in the world!
If you look at how many Porsches are actually produced (from Porsche 2013 annual report, 155,000 total vehicles produced annually) it is REALLY NOT MASS PRODUCED
Well...yeah...it kinda is. That's over 400 vehicles a day going out the doors, every day. Now take Aston Martin for example, they have made just over 22,000 cars since 1914, that not even equal to one year of Porsche production in 100 years of building them.
I am not down on Porsche (OK, maybe a little) because I just bought a new one two months ago, but I shake my head at how they really take their customers to the cleaners on option pricing for things that should be included in a car of this price point.
I have a very low-optioned 2014 Carrera S Cab that is my 5th Porsche. It has the base seats in it and I just can't help but think for $ 114 MSRP it should have power to and fro, but I have a manual adjuster there. And while the base radio is OK, they could not give us something as pedestrian as an XM module with it? I understand the 'true price' very well, its called the most profitable car company in the world!
If you look at how many Porsches are actually produced (from Porsche 2013 annual report, 155,000 total vehicles produced annually) it is REALLY NOT MASS PRODUCED
Well...yeah...it kinda is. That's over 400 vehicles a day going out the doors, every day. Now take Aston Martin for example, they have made just over 22,000 cars since 1914, that not even equal to one year of Porsche production in 100 years of building them.
I am not down on Porsche (OK, maybe a little) because I just bought a new one two months ago, but I shake my head at how they really take their customers to the cleaners on option pricing for things that should be included in a car of this price point.
Last edited by drcollie; 05-29-2014 at 02:51 PM.
#65
05-29-2014, 02:32 PM
When I was shopping for a 911, I made the following analogy about Porsche pricing:
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
Last edited by Chiboy; 05-29-2014 at 02:35 PM. Reason: typos
#66
05-29-2014, 03:00 PM
When I was shopping for a 911, I made the following analogy about Porsche pricing:
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
When you consider the used things change quite a bit--the expensive sides become free. The best I've seen was a 2012 C2S fully loaded MSRP 130k , 4,300 miles for $85k back in August 2013.
So I guess if you don't want to pay for the options, wait a year or two. I think the depreciation hits the most after Year 1 and prices actually go up a little bit in year 2. I can't find that price any more for a low mileage C2S. They are all in the $90ks.
At $85K, definitely blurs the line for potential M4 owners
#67
05-29-2014, 03:03 PM
I have a very low-optioned 2014 Carrera S Cab that is my 5th Porsche. It has the base seats in it and I just can't help but think for $ 114 MSRP it should have power to and fro, but I have a manual adjuster there. And while the base radio is OK, they could not give us something as pedestrian as an XM module with it? I understand the 'true price' very well, its called the most profitable car company in the world!
Don't mean to be rude.. But you have a stripped down Cab S, but for some reason you "think" that for $114K it should have power seats and XM.. And why is it you think that?
You bought a low optioned car so that's what you got and you save a few bucks off of the cost of one that was optioned at a more typical level.
Think of it this way.. You WILL pay for any feature regardless of if it is an option or included as base. When they incorporate options into the base car it just jacks up the base price of the car.. regardless of if we think the price should be..
So you could have paid, say $119K with the seats as part of the base car.. And then had no option not to have them...
What you are saying is you think the car is under featured for what you paid. When in reality it is that the car is overpriced to you. There is a distinction..
What is the relevance of it being your 5th Porsche?
Last edited by scatkins; 05-29-2014 at 03:08 PM.
#68
05-29-2014, 03:05 PM
Long after the price is forgotten, the quality remains. Yes it hurt to write the check but honestly, I haven't regretted my C2S purchase for a second - and frankly that's a bit surprising but the truth. I feel honored to be able to afford the car and enjoy every bloody second that I'm behind the wheel. You knew what the price was upfront and still decided to make the purchase. I'm really not understanding where this is all coming from. You vote with your wallet and you voted YES. Enjoy my friend, life is short.
Last edited by addysdaddy; 05-29-2014 at 03:08 PM.
#69
05-29-2014, 03:05 PM
I just bought a 2014 Audi SQ5 this weekend for my wife, its a heck of a rocketship for an SUV and very nicely appointed. Since its a cousin to Porsche, I have decided that the cars we drive and buy really are lacking when it comes to basic equipment that is on the car, and that Porsche really guns it to us all on the options. Granted, its a great driving, and good looking car - but COME ON....the 991 should have all the stuff you get on a $ 59K Audi should be standard on a $ 114K Porsche and its not even close. My MSRP car of $ 114K shouldn't be a penny over $ 70K as its equipped (yes, I pulled that number outta my ****). Things like this should be in the 991 without paying a dime extra - in my opinion, and we all know they are not. I get all this in the Audi but have to pay over and above the $ 114K price for them in the Porsche.....grrrrrr....
* Power seats
* Power Folding Mirrors
* XM and HD Radio along with a premium Bang & Olfsen stereo
* Heated Seats
* Control buttons on the steering wheel
* Keyless entry
* Leather dash and Door panels
* Self-dimming mirrors
* Back Up Camera
* Hood Liner (they should put this in the car to prevent dents)
* Google Plus (Wi=Fi via SIMM card)
* Some kind of inflatable spare tire
* Adaptive headlights (dynamic)
* Separate switch buttons for the rear windows on the Cab, and rear windows that vent open on the Coupe
I know, I know...as long as we enthusiasts will continue to pay for them, they're going to keep dinging us. But as least we should KNOW they are putting the screws to us and tell them we don't like it. And for those that say 'Go buy another brand' - this is my 5th Porsche so yes, I'm still drinking the Kool-Aid, but it's a bit more bitter in the taste than it used to be.
* Power seats
* Power Folding Mirrors
* XM and HD Radio along with a premium Bang & Olfsen stereo
* Heated Seats
* Control buttons on the steering wheel
* Keyless entry
* Leather dash and Door panels
* Self-dimming mirrors
* Back Up Camera
* Hood Liner (they should put this in the car to prevent dents)
* Google Plus (Wi=Fi via SIMM card)
* Some kind of inflatable spare tire
* Adaptive headlights (dynamic)
* Separate switch buttons for the rear windows on the Cab, and rear windows that vent open on the Coupe
I know, I know...as long as we enthusiasts will continue to pay for them, they're going to keep dinging us. But as least we should KNOW they are putting the screws to us and tell them we don't like it. And for those that say 'Go buy another brand' - this is my 5th Porsche so yes, I'm still drinking the Kool-Aid, but it's a bit more bitter in the taste than it used to be.
this is funny.....bmw m3s didnt have leather or sunroofs as standard options......porsche is no where nearly as bad
#70
05-29-2014, 03:06 PM
When I was shopping for a 911, I made the following analogy about Porsche pricing:
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
The base car price is like buying a filet at Morton's or another fine steakhouse. It's expensive, but it's a damn good steak and offers very good quality for a highish price.
The issue, though, is that the side dishes, like at Morton's, are ridiculously expensive, and those are what drives your bill through the roof. If you don't get a $15 martini, $12 side of potatoes, $20 appetizer, $15 lettuce salad, and $5 cup of coffee, the meal isn't inexpensive, but you get good value. If you load up on all that stuff (like deviated stitching on the steering wheel, a square foot of interior painted in the exterior color, etc, etc, etc), the value proposition is reasonable for a high end product. It's when you spend $40,000 tweaking the interior, and $15,000 to lower your car 1/3 of an inch and slightly improve already awesome handling, that you get suckered into the equivalent of a $200 steak dinner.
Yes, there is some hyperbole in the above, but that is my perspective. In the end, I was going to order a C2 with very few options, but found a great deal on a leftover 991 Cab that was nicely optioned. I appreciate and enjoy most of those options, but in the end, I could have been pretty happy with a pretty basic build. It seems like there are quite a few here who wouldn't be happy with a 911 unless it has a carbon fiber door sill that lights up at night, and for that, Porsche Corporate is very happy.
Here is another analogy.. You go stay at a nice resort hotel.. A Westin for example.. The advertised room rate is $225 a night.. However you also have a $27 resort fee and $25 in local BS tourist fees.. So instead your real cost is $277..
Now most of us by now know that the $225 resort room is really a lot more.. So we figure that in when we book the room and aren't really surprised when we get our bill at checkout. (At least in the US... You folks in Europe are lucky that they require all the crap fees to be included in the advertised rate).
Last edited by scatkins; 05-29-2014 at 03:16 PM.
#71
05-29-2014, 03:09 PM
911's and porsches in my area are dime a dozen. the only rare 911's are the RS's or even maybe the GT3/2's, but anybody whos not an enthusiast cant tell the difference between the cars anyway. as for production numbers as a whole company, lamborghini, by the end of 2013 a total of 28,367 cars had left the factory since 1963 and 1/2 of these numbers account for Gallardo production. I think the only modern day unicorns Porsche made are the CGT and 918 spyder.
#72
05-29-2014, 03:32 PM
Just to be clear that of the 155,000 cars produced, 85,000 were Cayenne, and 22,000 were Panameras. Of the total Porsche cars shipped to North America in all of 2013 they equaled 43,000 vehicles which if you apply the same percentages the 911 would be a very low number.
Again, an "exotic", no, somewhat exclusive or special, I might say yes or what are we paying $100 K + for.
#73
05-29-2014, 03:40 PM
The ability to create value in an industry that are so competitive in price/features is what many brands are battling for. We see the value of Porsche, willing to pay for it, and the benefits/smiles that it brings, again, it's not for everyone... there will always be faster, cheaper, worse, or better...
but 911 is legend...
but 911 is legend...
#74
05-29-2014, 03:58 PM
Got it, but like bccars was saying, let's keep things in perspective. Whenever I leave metro-Atlanta with my 911, I get plenty of questions like "Wow! is this an import?" . And back to where I grew up (Belgium), you do not see a Porsche in a week unless you spend time in a few very affluent areas.
I am going off on a tangent but let's not take a 911 for granted and imagine you need a McLaren to drive something 'special'.
. And back to where I grew up (Belgium), you do not see a Porsche in a week unless you spend time in a few very affluent areas. I am going off on a tangent but let's not take a 911 for granted and imagine you need a McLaren to drive something 'special'.
To be honest I see more 911's in Newport Beach California than anywhere in Germany..
What I do see in Germany are lots of Panameras and a few Cayannes. The ratio of Panameras to 911s that I've seen is maybe 20:1... (guess)
So my experience is that 911's are fairly rare even in Germany or even in Southern California. I think those that see them as a dime a dozen just happen to live in highly affluent areas where they are more prevalent.
But go a couple of miles from those cities and I rarely if ever see a 911. And I suspect SoCal has as high a 911 density as anywhere. Even living in a nice suburb in Orange County (not NewPort Beach!).. I rarely see one other than mine..
#75
05-29-2014, 04:23 PM
911s are drivable sports cars. there are many other sports cars that can't or won't be driven. there are many more cars that are not that fun to drive. 911s give daily fun. it's fast enough, reliable enough, and affordable. it's simple: if you want a new car with all the warranties and latest gizmos, get a new one. if you don't feel a fully optioned car is a good value, get a used one. 911 prices range from a $15k 996 (that's 1000x more fun than a new $15k car) to a $400k gt3rs4.0 that you can drive to the track as often as you like. there are always other choices, but for me, there's no substitute. 911s feel special.