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Originally posted by Cary Eisenlohr As far as shocks and springs go it’s very difficult to explain, however, I can set up a Bilstein with roughly the same valving for a specific speed (x amount of inches per second) to mimic the same valving at the same speed as a JRZ/Moton and the dyno sheet will even look very similar but, when you drive the car with equal springs they will feel and perform entirely differently. This is due to the fact that shocks need to operate in a very wide range rather than a fixed speed as a dyno test them. The internal design of a JRZ/Moton is vastly different from a Bilstein and the range of the JRZ/Moton is huge in comparison. What all this means is if you were to put stiffer springs on the PSS9’s as some have suggested, they could and likely would worsen the ride and over all handling rather than better it. This is because they just aren’t capable of damping the higher rates at multiple speeds. This stands for stock shocks as well as Sears Ready Riders. I’m not trying to flame any of those shocks, just pointing out they are different animals. If you ask Ken he will likely tell you that even though he went to heavier springs there may be less body roll but the ride quality is very similar to the Pss9’s with the lighter springs. This is because they are able to control the spring rather than the spring controlling the shock or Damper. For those that don’t want to spend the money, look at the JRZ Single adjustable that have one adjuster that controls both Rebound and compression, the same as the JIC’s but will give you very close to the same performance enhancements as the Motons did for Ken. Next month JRZ will have their Double adjustable NON-CANISTER shock available for those that don’t want the canisters on their street cars. They will also have the piggy back canister shocks later this summer where the canister is integrated into the shock itself. Currently I have the Single adjustable on my own car and I have a set of 4 way adjustable sitting on the floor. I haven’t installed them yet because the singles work so well it just hasn’t seemed worth going to the effort to install them. The reality is, unless I do some serious testing on a track, I won’t notice much difference ripping around on the streets. As I told a couple people in the past, I have given 8 people rides that “HAD†PSS9’s on their car’s and after the ride every one of them now have JRZ’s on their cars and tell the same feeling Ken has been explaining. Without a doubt the hottest thing on the market today for the money is the Single adjustable JRZ’s and they are very close to the same money as the PSS9’s so it just amazes me people are still buying so many PSS9’s….I think they call it marketing :D . I think one of the problems on the board is, whenever the name JRZ comes up people only think about the “full blown triple adjustable racing shocks†that Chad has on his car and are blind to the fact that JRZ makes a lot of different shocks. I’ve even seen Excellence make that same assumption. Ok Ok… no more plugging; all I can say is think JRZ or Moton…. And I’m really not trying to plug those shocks I just don’t understand why they are still the best kept secret in so many circles. If you look, you’ll find they’ll have one to fit your budget and the results will be mind blowing. It surprised me too, at first. ;) I'm still not sure I really understand it. I believe a Porsche is made for balance, which handling is at least half of the equation. It is my opinion 98% of those who own these cars did not buy it for handling. My own belief is this is so because the car already handles far better than most of the owners dare tread. On the other hand, most are able to handle more straight line acceleration. In addition, I do not believe most Porsche tuners really understand the suspension aspect. Even when they do, how does one convey to a potential un informed buyer what they are really buying? That is to say, for 10K you get :confused: .... better handling. Exactly what is "better handling?" How much better handling? I am not sure I am doing a good job conveying my point. And then, there is always the bling bling factor of the Porsche. :o |
WOW, I know I came late towards the tail end of this but I got to say: KPV, you really know what to spend money on!! I enjoyed reading all your posts regarding the limitations you faced with the PSS9 and I almost regret that it might come to an end. Handling is an importent aspect of owning a 996TT and you have shed a whole lot of light on this area. Thanks for that :)
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OK guys, what if I wanted to just tweak a little better performance knowing that I don't want to go all the way to JRZ at least yet. Since I already have PSS-9 like many of us, what about monoball front mounts and change the front springs to 350 # H & R for about $1,000? If not then it is JRZ at what cost for how much of an increase. Yes the car is tracked and yes I'm already going to raise 10 mm so I'm not on the bump stop of the PSS-9 (currently GT-2 height.) The brakes are maxed out for improvement and three sets of wheels including slicks. Advice please.
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Ken, Cary...once again, I must say that this is one of the most significant threads that has shown up on this forum in a long time...It's usually about bling and power...finally, arguably the most important factor, handling has been discussed in great detail...Kudos to you guys!!! :-)
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James, most likely you're going to have problems just changing the springs. The Bilstein’s should be valved for their spring rates, around 260 up front, and they will probably not appropriately dampen your stiffer springs. It has to be approached from a system standpoint, ie.
unsprung weight 18's or 19's anti-roll bars suspension heights springs shocks You try to get the car tuned to (I think, Cary help me out) 1-2Hz up front and 1 Hz rear. It all has to work as a system so just swapping springs on an appropriately valved shock usually will not work. |
Ken,
thanks for the informative writeup. You never cease to amaze. . . Ron |
Cary,
Well......his comments speak for themselves. Chad, I agree with you completely. I have always addressed all of my cars with suspension first, power later. The very interesting, and SHOCKING, thing I realized the other day driving home, was that I experienced chills when I felt the car's handling. It amazed me that a car's suspension could have that profound of an effect on my senses!! I really am not kidding. I was so elated that is was dead on that I got chills. Even the power upgrade didn't do that to me!! The only problem with my 996TT project was a misintepretation on my part relating to the PSS-9's. I could not use them to lower the car to where I wanted it and they weren't ready for what I had to throw at them. Again, that doesn't make them bad. It just makes them unsutable for me personally. 03-turbo911, Yes, I know what to spend money on......alot of it!! Ugh!! You know what though. I can't wait to get in it to drive it. That is a good feeling. Knowing that the bugs are worked out is a good feeling. Knowing that it is the way you expect without any deficiencies is a good feeling. So, even though it wasn't cheap, it was worth it.........to me. james, You bring up a good point. Your suggestion is the same as simply replacing the stock springs with H&R's as some people have done. The difference is that the PSS-9 struts and shocks are the base rather than the stock struts and shocks. So, the proper comparison would be between the stock dampers with H&R's vs the Bilstein dampers with the H&R's. If you choose this path, a comparison of the stock vs PSS-9 damper travel, valve rates and droop woul dbe in order. Much more additional information would be necessary. I must defer to Cary's comments. Chris, Hey, this is a passion. Why else would I devote so much time, energy and money into this? It is pure LUNACY!!!!! Tim, Didn't you mean inappropriately valved....? Ron, If you keep patting me on the back I will never stop!!! Flattery gets you everywhere!!! LOL Maybe I need someone to tell me I am on crack!!!! hilarious |
Ken , why did you decide to use H & R springs as opposed to Eibach. In my car we used Eibach but our spring rates where higher, 600lb front , 900lb rear. What settings did you end up with for the bound and rebound on the moton's (i am still evaluating mine) the final settings will be done when Roger gets back from Lemmans next week. In the mean time he told me to drive the car and get used to it . I maintained my upgraded H &R sway bars ,( which i had from before), but i decided to get better ones, in your opinion , if money is no object, what are the best sway bars made , also what drop links.
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Xico,
AWE deals with H&R springs, so I simply went with them. I have H&R springs on my MINI Cooper S and I am very happy with them. I realize your spring rates were higher. I purposely used slightly lower rates since the roads are in worse condition up here. I am running 3 for compression damping and 4 for rebound damping. Best sway bars made? Hmmmm. It simply boils down to degree of adjustability and fit. Sway bars work based upon their deflection both in bending and in torsion. Both of these movements are strictly based on the bars modulus of elasticity (E). E is constant for steel regardless whether Porsche, H&R, TechArt or anyone else makes them. So, again.....fit and adjustability. I opted for the Porsche GT3 bars (Still uninstalled as I am awaiting the arrival of the front bar) since I figured their fit would be best. Incidentally, the sizes of the bars are listed below: Stock Front Swaybar 24mm nonadjustable Stock Rear Swaybar 21.7mm nonadjustable GT3 Front Swaybar 26.7mm 5 way GT3 Rear Swaybar 20.8mm 4 way TechArt Front Swaybar 23.8mm 3 way TechArt Rear Swaybar 23mm 3 way H&R Front Swaybar 25mm 3 way H&R Rear Swaybar 24mm 3 way |
Ken,
Don't forget to consider the weight of the sway bar. |
Weight?
The smallest front bar (TechArt) weighs 2.35 pounds/foot The largest front bar (H&R) weighs 2.59 pounds/foot If we estimate the bar is 5 feet in total length, then the weight difference is 1.2 pounds!!! Without calculating it, the rear bar weight differential is going to be similar. Quite frankly, I cannot get excited about 1.2 pounds!! :p :p |
Hey Ken,
I'm glad everything worked out well for you. You've been trying to work through these issues for a long time and I knew you would find the right solution. Didn't I say all this time that Cary was the best??? His knowledge is just amazing. I can't wait 'til he finally works on my GT2... I wanna do some crazy **** that will make Turbo owners drop their jaws. Wanna put those 4-way JRZ's to good use, Cary? ;) |
ken you forgot the TRG bars.
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Ken , thanks for the info . i will try those settings and let you know if i like them. The drop links you used look awsome, who makes them.
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Originally posted by ColorChange James, most likely you're going to have problems just changing the springs. The Bilstein’s should be valved for their spring rates, around 260 up front, and they will probably not appropriately dampen your stiffer springs. I talked turkey with Bilstein. They said that you can go up as high as 400 in the front and 750 in the rear. You would however have to run your valving at full stiff in order to control these suckers. In case anyone is interested in changing out the springs on the PSS9's, the springs diameters are as follows. Front spring 2.5" I.D. Rear spring 60mm I.D. |
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