Sort of.
The intercoolers are also there to increase the density of the intake air, therefore allowing more fuel to be mixed in, creating a larger explosion in the cylinder, more torque, etc.
The intercooler's cooling effect on the intake air also helps stave off detonation.

I agree, 100% meth is an economical substitute for race gas.



But it's not a true pump tune.
Boost and timing are generally a bit higher than can be run on pure pump.

 

I think what Scott was saying is that you can compare the two different setups, but it should be expected that a car running meth or race gas with advanced timing is going to be faster.
For this reason, the data may be accurate, but one car has a known potential advantage, so it should not be a surprise.

 

Guys i believe that in order to find out some outcomes here we have to stay focused to certain parts...As for the injectors,i told earlier that my car by just changing injectors and fine tune it(BUT ON THE SAME BOOST) gained me about 2 car lenghts...I used to believe that injectors could not make any difference if i did not boost it up...until i installed them and saw that at high rpm the car was faster...Stock injectors run out of duty cucle...so they do not spray fuel the optimal way...
So i think that when somebody installs injectors,then he will find out his car will be faster...until then he might believe they are the same...Same story goes on with 60-130run...if somebody does not have a good time he says its driving skills,not how fast a car is...But if someday he manages to make his car fast enough for a good 60-130time he then likes the 60-130run as a measure of fast cars...
When i was k24/18g stock injictors and madsex343 was k24 flashed we did 7,04 and 7,86 respectively...From rolling start 2nd gear 60km to 250km we had almost 3 car lenghts difference...a full second is between 3 and 4 car lenghts...Whether some like it or not...

 

To be honest in this case, your tuning is unsafe! If you were already exceeding 100% injection duty cycle without upgraded injectors , your tuner has gone in the unsafe zone.Why would you want to exceed the duty cycle knowingly? what if they stop spraying? This is the reason , Tony has been advocating the significance of Injector duty cycle in these forums. Almost all other tuning communites say they wont go above 80% Duty cycle, for some reason we think our cars are special to exceed 100% duty cycles and be fine.

My car with 5 bar FPR is at 90% injection duty cycle , which is pretty close to unsafe , but i have some headroom, But if you are overdriving the injectors above 100% to start with ...then that's a tuning issue.

An upgraded injector has bought you back to the safe zone of injection duty cycle. That's all it did. Like i said , we did some tests with the same car at 5 bar fpr 90% injection duty cycle vs injectors at 75% duty cycle....the power is the same when using pump gas higher boost.

The car will pull timing unless you run higher octane to take advantage of higher boost. More fuel and more boost by default doesnt mean more power. I hope some tuner can chime in...i would like to learn and confirm the theory behind this as well.

 

I can say from personal experience tuning my own cars that increased boost with the proper AFR's will increase power produced without increasing ignition timing.

However, there is a point that timing needs to be advanced to move even further up in power.
The car will definitely pull timing if it sees knock, but if there is no knock, power may continue to climb.
You can tune a car to make similar power on low timing and higher boost, or higher timing and lower boost.
Throttle response may be better running more advanced timing.

Now, once you use race gas and higher timing, even more power can potentially be made.

Just different practices used to tune a car.
They both work, but I like to play around a bit to see what happens when tuning, so I've tuned both ways.
Generally, I run a higher boost, lower timing strategy to take advantage of 93 octane.
I've seen 26+psi on straight 93 octane-not the vette, but my previous car, a 3000GT VR4 TT.
Ran like a clock.

btw-I definitely agree on the 80% injector rule for a margin of safety.

 

You did not read my post...I said when i had stock injectors they had to work at 90% duty cucle to feed tha k24/18g turbos...and of course with the stupid 5bar fpr...I did not say over 100%...But even at 90% they can not spray evenly...compared to injectors rated to 65%...One other thing people do not understund is that when you install a 5bar fpr the injectors have to override 5bar fuel pressure so to open their valves...not 3,8bar...When a tuner sets lets say 90% duty cucle...he only gies the signal from the ECU to the injector to open...nothing more nothing less...in the case of 5bar the injector will need more time to fully open compared to 3,8bar...so you loose time...and you loose fuel amount...So as a rule i can say to you that when you set 90% at 5bar it is equal almost to 80% at 3,8bar...
It is something simular to intake valve springs of a turbo engine compared to naturally aspirated engine...Turbo engine has to have more stiff springs in order to override the boost pressure of the air/fuel entering the combustion chamber as the valve closes...The higher the boost pressure,the stiffer the intake spring should be...so simple...

 

Sorry it wasnt clear before, but your explaination makes sense.

 

The pump/meth vs race gas thing has been debated to death, and while that article is interesting, I believe that my car will make more power on a dedicated race gas tune. We will see soon, as that is the plan. I was never much interested in running race gas, as I rarely track my car. I do have a spare ECU and we plan to stick a race gas dedicated tune in my car and see if it outperforms my pump/meth tune. I think it will. Maybe not a lot, but I think the potential is there. You have a better shot at getting bad pump gas than you do at getting a bad can of C16 or MS109. The meth can only do so much.

As far as the 60-130 thing goes. I say again, if your 60-130 times suck and you race a similarly modded or identically modded car with a better time, you will get your *** handed to you by whatever lengths it takes...don't care if you have the exact same power or not, period!

Sorry Chris (Powell), I sort of disagree. The 60-130 is a pretty good equalizer. It is a consistant way to measure how fast your car accelerates from 60mph to 130mph. That is a long time to accelerate, period. People are going to have advantages and disadvantages whether it be turbos, injectors, piping, meth, gearing, etc.

Being a dragracer myself, I happen to ALSO agree that trap speed is probably the best indicator of power. My car sucks at the track because of my clutch setup, however, my car only traps 130 at the track. It has run 6.2 and runs consistant 6.3's + 6.4's.

So is my car fast because it runs 6.2's or is it a stone because it only runs 130?

 

Thanks for the info. So more fuel through bigger injectors with boost does yeild power if there is no knock? Then with reference to OP's post Jason's car with injectors runs dead even with my 1.0 bar 5 bar FPR. His knock sensor is pulling timing??

 

Mike, so you will have a race tune without WI to compare? that should be good info.

If you have a race tune with WI of course you will be faster than with just WI. Just look at the boost you can run on WI and that says it all. you can't run boost like that unless you are on 100 + race gas.

 

While I agree I am probably 100+ octane or so on my pump/meth tune, I am DEFINITELY not as safe as C16. Unless Tony disagrees or has other ideas, I think that I will have a race only, no meth. (I may convert my 100% meth to 100% water on the race tune though. Beauty of this versatile system) I think there MIGHT be a disadvantage to too much octane as far as flame burn...I can't see running too much more boost either, as I still have stock head gaskets, studs, etc.. Thats why I don't see a huge increase in power with the race gas. Maybe a little more boost, but definitely more timing.

 

That depends,Are you brake boosting to get your 60-130 times?If so, brake boosting will dramatically reduce 60-130 times but will have no effect on trap speed or another hp indicator like the mile.So a true hp measurement would be inaccurate on a car that was brake boosting to achieve 60-130 times.On the other hand it will help you win a lot of roll on races against cars similarly equipped that are not brake boosting.I think only looking at one performance test only gives a snapshot of a certain cars performance.One really has to look at all the acceleration tests to get a true idea of a cars performance potential.

 

Yes Joe, I did brake boost, afterall, no rules in street racing My 6.2 was done an a 55deg night wth drag radials, you know almost perfect...But my car consistantly traps 129-130.
In all my years of dragracing, I have never been able to figure out why a better 60ft (or brake boosting) for that matter doesn't increase trap speed as you technically are going a faster MPH sooner and can gain more speed sooner? Mysteries of life?

 

Trap speed is a result of power, shifting (at what rpm, how fast etc)...60 ft is a function of traction.

So yes you could get out faster but while you get there maybe shifting and other var account for a insignificant increase in trap. I have always wondered about this too....has your 1/8 mile trap increased with a better 60ft?

 

No. Other than my 60ft (which actually is a consistant 2.0-2.1) I am very consistant in my shifting and my shift points. My half track is 102-103 almost every pass. Last night I went 102.35 and 130.14. My best ET (not on that pass) was an 11.49 with a 2.1 60ft.