The complete road racing thread, take your car to the track!
#92
08-11-2010, 08:01 AM
Registered User
Are you close to GingerMan - I think we are trying to put together a day in the next couple of weeks (evening test and tune 4:30 - 7:30).
#93
08-11-2010, 08:29 AM
Registered User
Just had to post this short video about the friction circle and 'cable instinct'. Simple concept - but the most critical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oik9_Nm2bns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oik9_Nm2bns
Last edited by fdorn; 08-11-2010 at 08:33 AM.
#94
08-11-2010, 09:01 AM
Nice video Frank. I've been using that analogy in intermediate classes and one-on-one with intermediate students for a long time. I use an imaginary string instead of a cable.
I even demonstrate it the same way. Hardest part is standing on one foot to show how it's done. Can't demonstrate heel-toe downshift without sitting down.
I even demonstrate it the same way. Hardest part is standing on one foot to show how it's done. Can't demonstrate heel-toe downshift without sitting down.
#95
08-11-2010, 09:27 AM
Registered User
I am somewhat of a slow learner. I probably heard about the 'string' 3 or 4 years ago at first track event I attended(I had no idea what the guy was talking about - but kept hearing it over and over again and it started to become clearer).
It did not actually come together until I recently read "Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook" by Vic Elford. It seems to be a simple, very basic book, but it is one of those books that reads different depending on the information you are 'ready' for. Not sure if that makes any sense. His explanation of the 'friction circle', when used with the 'string or cable' theory was an 'ah ha' event for me. When you put it all together on the track (which I cannot do 100% of time) it is a completely different experience - for me anyway. Less effort, smooth transitions, drifting to track out because of g's and not because you are pointing the steering wheel there. You are 'slowing down to go faster'.
It did not actually come together until I recently read "Porsche High-Performance Driving Handbook" by Vic Elford. It seems to be a simple, very basic book, but it is one of those books that reads different depending on the information you are 'ready' for. Not sure if that makes any sense. His explanation of the 'friction circle', when used with the 'string or cable' theory was an 'ah ha' event for me. When you put it all together on the track (which I cannot do 100% of time) it is a completely different experience - for me anyway. Less effort, smooth transitions, drifting to track out because of g's and not because you are pointing the steering wheel there. You are 'slowing down to go faster'.
Nice video Frank. I've been using that analogy in intermediate classes and one-on-one with intermediate students for a long time. I use an imaginary string instead of a cable.
I even demonstrate it the same way. Hardest part is standing on one foot to show how it's done. Can't demonstrate heel-toe downshift without sitting down.
I even demonstrate it the same way. Hardest part is standing on one foot to show how it's done. Can't demonstrate heel-toe downshift without sitting down.
Last edited by fdorn; 08-11-2010 at 09:37 AM.
#96
08-11-2010, 09:53 AM
The thing I tell the students that seems to first get their attention is that you can do 90% threshold braking + 44% maximum cornering acceleration and still be right on the friction circle. (.9^2 + .44^2 = 1) So just easing off the brakes a little allows you to take a significant cornering load. Then I tell them it's called "trail braking" and you can see the light bulbs going on in the room.
You are right about being ready to accept information. No point in telling this to novices, they just don't have the experience base to get it. In my experience, a student can think about 3 new things on the track. Anything else is overload. Once they have internalized one or more of those, you can give them something else to think about. I just try to find the 3 things they are ready for.
Jon
You are right about being ready to accept information. No point in telling this to novices, they just don't have the experience base to get it. In my experience, a student can think about 3 new things on the track. Anything else is overload. Once they have internalized one or more of those, you can give them something else to think about. I just try to find the 3 things they are ready for.
Jon
#97
08-11-2010, 10:47 AM
Registered User
thx for that equation.
Last edited by fdorn; 08-11-2010 at 10:52 AM.
#99
08-12-2010, 08:02 AM
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Michigan
Age: 54
Posts: 6,325
Rep Power: 332 
Yeah Gingerman is like an hour from me. Let me know.
#100
08-20-2010, 05:59 PM
The thing I tell the students that seems to first get their attention is that you can do 90% threshold braking + 44% maximum cornering acceleration and still be right on the friction circle. (.9^2 + .44^2 = 1) So just easing off the brakes a little allows you to take a significant cornering load. Then I tell them it's called "trail braking" and you can see the light bulbs going on in the room.
You are right about being ready to accept information. No point in telling this to novices, they just don't have the experience base to get it. In my experience, a student can think about 3 new things on the track. Anything else is overload. Once they have internalized one or more of those, you can give them something else to think about. I just try to find the 3 things they are ready for.
Jon
You are right about being ready to accept information. No point in telling this to novices, they just don't have the experience base to get it. In my experience, a student can think about 3 new things on the track. Anything else is overload. Once they have internalized one or more of those, you can give them something else to think about. I just try to find the 3 things they are ready for.
Jon
So what are my next three things?
Hope all is well, TK
#101
08-30-2010, 12:32 PM
Road America lap - with video
I went to Road America this past week for the BMW CCA National Octoberfest. It's their big deal event, with concours, gymkhana, autocross, and 5 days of DE. I did the intermediate classroom.
They had a lot of cars and a lot of instructors. In the video below, I went out toward the tail of the instructor group, and there were somewhere between 60 and 80 cars out there on the 4 mile track. I think I held up the Porsche marque fairly well.
Couldn't post it all, but we went back and counted, and I passed 27 cars in 20 minutes. I just ran out of time...
http://www.youtube.com/daantzig#p/u/0/NyXXdfFHAbc
Actually, there were a few cars faster than me too. There was a couple from Virginia, where she had an X50 and he had a GT2. They were well set up for the track, and they both whipped my butt. Also a couple of cars that started life as Z06's, then moved up. A couple of M3 race cars ran about the same lap times as me - I walked them in the straights, but they caught me in the twistier parts of the track.
My best lap time was 2:33.7. It got hotter later in the day, and I was running more like 2:34-2:36 when I got a clean lap, which wasn't very often.
It was really a blast. Car ran great all weekend.
They had a lot of cars and a lot of instructors. In the video below, I went out toward the tail of the instructor group, and there were somewhere between 60 and 80 cars out there on the 4 mile track. I think I held up the Porsche marque fairly well.
Couldn't post it all, but we went back and counted, and I passed 27 cars in 20 minutes. I just ran out of time...http://www.youtube.com/daantzig#p/u/0/NyXXdfFHAbc
Actually, there were a few cars faster than me too. There was a couple from Virginia, where she had an X50 and he had a GT2. They were well set up for the track, and they both whipped my butt. Also a couple of cars that started life as Z06's, then moved up. A couple of M3 race cars ran about the same lap times as me - I walked them in the straights, but they caught me in the twistier parts of the track.
My best lap time was 2:33.7. It got hotter later in the day, and I was running more like 2:34-2:36 when I got a clean lap, which wasn't very often.
It was really a blast. Car ran great all weekend.
#103
08-30-2010, 12:57 PM
Oh yeah, it's not far for you at all. It isn't all that technical, but it sure is fast. Topped out 5th gear on the front straight (up the hill), then again on the long downhill. I get pretty close to that on the third long run, but the braking zone is short at the end and I'm backing out at about 145.
#105
08-30-2010, 06:46 PM
Registered User
Way to represent Porsche....Thanks for the video. Glad you had a great time....
I went to Road America this past week for the BMW CCA National Octoberfest. It's their big deal event, with concours, gymkhana, autocross, and 5 days of DE. I did the intermediate classroom.
They had a lot of cars and a lot of instructors. In the video below, I went out toward the tail of the instructor group, and there were somewhere between 60 and 80 cars out there on the 4 mile track. I think I held up the Porsche marque fairly well. Couldn't post it all, but we went back and counted, and I passed 27 cars in 20 minutes. I just ran out of time...
http://www.youtube.com/daantzig#p/u/0/NyXXdfFHAbc
Actually, there were a few cars faster than me too. There was a couple from Virginia, where she had an X50 and he had a GT2. They were well set up for the track, and they both whipped my butt. Also a couple of cars that started life as Z06's, then moved up. A couple of M3 race cars ran about the same lap times as me - I walked them in the straights, but they caught me in the twistier parts of the track.
My best lap time was 2:33.7. It got hotter later in the day, and I was running more like 2:34-2:36 when I got a clean lap, which wasn't very often.
It was really a blast. Car ran great all weekend.
They had a lot of cars and a lot of instructors. In the video below, I went out toward the tail of the instructor group, and there were somewhere between 60 and 80 cars out there on the 4 mile track. I think I held up the Porsche marque fairly well.
Couldn't post it all, but we went back and counted, and I passed 27 cars in 20 minutes. I just ran out of time...http://www.youtube.com/daantzig#p/u/0/NyXXdfFHAbc
Actually, there were a few cars faster than me too. There was a couple from Virginia, where she had an X50 and he had a GT2. They were well set up for the track, and they both whipped my butt. Also a couple of cars that started life as Z06's, then moved up. A couple of M3 race cars ran about the same lap times as me - I walked them in the straights, but they caught me in the twistier parts of the track.
My best lap time was 2:33.7. It got hotter later in the day, and I was running more like 2:34-2:36 when I got a clean lap, which wasn't very often.
It was really a blast. Car ran great all weekend.
