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Upgrade from k16/gr2860rs worth it?

 
  #46  
Old 02-13-2012, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by earl3 View Post
Guys,
While I applaud the K16 innovation, there is no "magic" compressor wheel thats going to own all the previous attempts. You're still limited by volumetric efficiency, RPM, and density ratio. Just because a turbo is capable of flowing some amount doesn't mean it will on your motor. Really the only thing you can change with a K16 based turbo (unless you get into extensive hotside mods) is density ratio (boost + IATs) so if your compressor moves what the motor needs at the boost level you want, and does so with relatively good efficiency, and you have good IAT control, a bigger wheel isn't going to do much. The key is finding out how much the motor needs -you can look at some bhp dynos and backsolve for VE and go from there to get an idea. The biggest difference between K16 hybrid variants will be the supporting mods on the car and octane. Don't make me get into data

Flyinguy,
Similar to Todd's rec, I would say get an EBC and a retune, fill her up with MS109, run 1.4-1.5 bar of boost and go get your 6 sec 60-130 and 10sec 130+mph 1/4 mile. Then lower it back down to 1.2-1.3 with pump +meth and enjoy the low end on your commute. I wouldn't even bother with a different compressor unless you fall drastically short. ..and I doubt you will as I've run 7 flat on my 16g car with 1.3 bar at 2600' DA on 94 octane...with a shift, with a slipping clutch. The 2860 is very similar to the 16g and we've got very similar supporting mods.

As for the talk of 1.6 bar on pump fuel with this K1639 turbo, look at the timing in the logs you posted at 1.4-1.5 bar. I cringe to think of what the EGTs are doing. Note the very jagged timing curve with dips down to 4 deg and 0.73 lambda AF ratios -this is the DME doing everything it can to hold the motor together. I would back it down to 1.3, just like every other K16 hybrid on pump gas.

My .02
As I said its not an academic issue its reality. Those jagged logs you refer to are taken from the car as it raced arround a 4 mile circuit, topping 194 mph, braking hard to about 50 for a tight right then on to a series of fast bends where speeds of 150+ were achieved. This is on pump fuel. What do you expect to see. WE never gave the car the chance to cool down and wanted to see worst case figures. I'm sure, had Ken wanted to post figures that look good he would have approach this from a different angle and done a quick couple of runs and posted the numbers. ( that's not what Nine Excellence is about).
I will say this again. It out ran a GT2RS outright. It did not beat my times or speeds on that day of testing. It also outran K2418g car up to the 150 mark where we drew level. By the end of the 1.4 miles it was about 2 car lengths ahead.
We have all the logs not only for my car but ken has had 16g cars at Bruntingthorpe and 16 billets there as well and they have not got anywhere near my times.
Perhaps the issue here is your comparing your times against ours. As i said our circuit uses a 1.4 deg hill which we go up. The fact that the comparison between different Turbo 911tt's on the day shows the ability of the K1639's to kick ***.
I have had this car for over 5 years starting with a REVO 1 then 2 upgrade with standard K16's and i can tell you this car flows much much more air.

If compressor size doesn't matter then that would also exclude the 16g and 16 billets. This was no amateur R&D. This was a multi development from a top Turbo designer/builder who designed and made a wheel that would work on my car. There were a few test wheels done. Flow testing against the 16g and Billet proves these new wheels flow more. Our times prove they produce more power.
Goo- bye 16g's an Billets we have move on.
It really is that simple. I can understand why your side of the pond doesn't like it, but believe it or not we might have just topped the K16 Turbo market for now.
TBH i dont really care less about the poletics of it all, as I get absolutely nothing from this except a 15k bill for my side of the all the R&D and supporting mods and a Car which is the quickest I have ever had. Even controlling torque with the EBS we are seeing 900nm. Ken is the one you really need to continue discussing the "nitty gritty" details of his kit.

I dont mean to be argumentative but your manor comes over to me as if I am just talking figures. Some times you have to Walk the Walk and that's what we have done. We have actually done it and it works. Simple as that. It doesn't matter what the critics say any more. It might have done at the R&D stage but its not. This was done at a top level of uK engineering and it will take Ken some time to get back his costs. Its a reality and i think Ken has sold over 10 kits so far in the last month or so.
Perhaps you should buy a kit from him? Mark ( Markski ) yes Markski is involved so you can say its no amateur set. He supplied the tune for the flow figures we gave him and the level of supporting mods. Then you could fit a kit , run some times and see how they compare to our runs. We dont talk about, think about , use , store or advocate Race Fuel. Its not available at fuel stations over here and you need a licence to store it on your property.
 

Last edited by Sunnyside; 02-13-2012 at 01:25 AM.
  #47  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:17 AM
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K24 madness, I will defer to you but do have an observation. Personally I have seen that keeping the hot-side and upgrading the cold side usually results in better spool and just a tad worse high end power due to increased back-pressure. Admittedly, i only have experience in one setup.

But TDK Alum running K16/24 hybrids, seemed to outrun me on K24s at every shift but had a bit less high RPM power (presumably due to more back-pressure created by a K16 hot side). On the freeway the cars, with almost identical mods and the same exact tune and boost level would show him take a car length lead on every shift (due to better spool) and my K24s would reel him in by redline. Happened over and over again. It was interesting because the cars were just as fast. But it was oblivious that he had better spool and I had a tad better high end power.

Also don't forget that over the years there have been at least 3-4 versions of the GT28 K16 turbos. Starting with journal bearing K16s with different cold sides, ball bearing water cooled 2860s and then Alpha 28s which have no K16 parts at all (and are more like 3071s in build, size and power). Make it very confusing.

BTW my ball bearing water cooled 2860s can get to full boost of 1.3 BAR by 3,000 RPM in 6th if you really load them up. Great for squeezing the throttle to pass without downshifting.

Obviously at some point the tiny K16 hot-side will limit power and be too restrictive no matter how big of a hot end you put on it.

Originally Posted by K24madness View Post
The GT2860 even inside a K16 hotside is a nice turbo. Do not upgrade to the 2871. The 71mm compressor is a mismatch for the GT28 turbine. It will have much more lag. The 71mm compressor works best on the GT30 frame. The Tial 68mm compressor is the best match for the GT28 turbine for your car. More flow and quicker boost response. Although it sounds to good to be true it's one of the rare times where it is true.

If I were you I would order new GT2868 CHRA's from Tial. The bearing cage design has just been updated by Garrett to eliminate the plastic cage in exchange for metal. Not knowing how much life is left in yours this is a safer bet. I would also get the newest Garrett .60ar compressor cover that normally comes on the Tial A28's. I estimate the cost to be around 3k.
 

Last edited by Turbo Fanatic; 02-13-2012 at 10:49 AM.
  #48  
Old 02-13-2012, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by K24madness View Post
...The Tial 68mm compressor is the best match for the GT28 turbine for your car. More flow and quicker boost response. Although it sounds to good to be true it's one of the rare times where it is true.

If I were you I would order new GT2868 CHRA's from Tial....
Not knowing how much life is left in yours this is a safer bet. I would also get the newest Garrett .60ar compressor cover that normally comes on the Tial A28's. I estimate the cost to be around 3k.
so just the wheel itself can be ordered from TIAL? is it billet? ball bearing? price? does the inside of the housing need some massaging? is this the billet 2868 that EPL-Tony mentioned earlier?

i dont want to get too into new compressor covers and all that... because at that point ($3k or so...) i may as well sell my current setup and get fresh turbos for the same price. whereas doing just a wheel is looking right around $1300 or so (for 2871). and these turbos are nowhere near close to needing a rebuild with only 10k miles on them. if im gunna do anything to the current setup, it would just be a wheel change. anything more and it just seems worth it to get something that isnt so much limited by a k16 hotside.

so 2868 > 2871?

also, thanx to everyone for their opinions and comments
 
  #49  
Old 02-13-2012, 06:28 AM
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I run 2871s all day with virtually no lag!
 
  #50  
Old 02-13-2012, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MY996TT View Post
I run 2871s all day with virtually no lag!
And that was Todd K's statement as well. Same boost threshold and spool basically, with a bit more power
 
  #51  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by MY996TT View Post
I run 2871s all day with virtually no lag!
I have run 2860's, 2871's and 2868's all in the same car with the same turbine housing. The 2871 was the slowest responding of the 3. The 2868 was the fastest.

I would not consider the 2871 "laggy" but when compared to the other two the differences are there.
 
  #52  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by FlyingGuy View Post
so just the wheel itself can be ordered from TIAL? is it billet? ball bearing? price? does the inside of the housing need some massaging? is this the billet 2868 that EPL-Tony mentioned earlier?

i dont want to get too into new compressor covers and all that... because at that point ($3k or so...) i may as well sell my current setup and get fresh turbos for the same price. whereas doing just a wheel is looking right around $1300 or so (for 2871). and these turbos are nowhere near close to needing a rebuild with only 10k miles on them. if im gunna do anything to the current setup, it would just be a wheel change. anything more and it just seems worth it to get something that isnt so much limited by a k16 hotside.

so 2868 > 2871?

also, thanx to everyone for their opinions and comments
You can do just a Tial 68mm compressor wheel upgrade to what you got. Yes it's billet. The Garrett compressor covers flow much better than your K16 ones. They cost around $300-$400 a pair. You don't have to change them but I would recommend you do to get the most out of your turbos.

Call Tial and ask if they can do the upgrade for you. The compressor cover (either K16 or Garrett) needs to be machined to fit.
 
  #53  
Old 02-13-2012, 03:43 PM
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I may have been unclear on exactly what turbo I have, but I DO have a TIAL/Garret compressor housing. Only the hot side is k16, but the compressor housing says TIAL all over it!
 
  #54  
Old 02-13-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingGuy View Post
I may have been unclear on exactly what turbo I have, but I DO have a TIAL/Garret compressor housing. Only the hot side is k16, but the compressor housing says TIAL all over it!
Sounds like you only need the 68mm compressor wheel. Call Tial and discuss the upgrade.
 
  #55  
Old 02-13-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunnyside View Post
As I said its not an academic issue its reality. Those jagged logs you refer to are taken from the car as it raced arround a 4 mile circuit, topping 194 mph, braking hard to about 50 for a tight right then on to a series of fast bends where speeds of 150+ were achieved. This is on pump fuel. What do you expect to see. WE never gave the car the chance to cool down and wanted to see worst case figures. I'm sure, had Ken wanted to post figures that look good he would have approach this from a different angle and done a quick couple of runs and posted the numbers. ( that's not what Nine Excellence is about).
I will say this again. It out ran a GT2RS outright. It did not beat my times or speeds on that day of testing. It also outran K2418g car up to the 150 mark where we drew level. By the end of the 1.4 miles it was about 2 car lengths ahead.
We have all the logs not only for my car but ken has had 16g cars at Bruntingthorpe and 16 billets there as well and they have not got anywhere near my times.
Perhaps the issue here is your comparing your times against ours. As i said our circuit uses a 1.4 deg hill which we go up. The fact that the comparison between different Turbo 911tt's on the day shows the ability of the K1639's to kick ***.
I have had this car for over 5 years starting with a REVO 1 then 2 upgrade with standard K16's and i can tell you this car flows much much more air.

If compressor size doesn't matter then that would also exclude the 16g and 16 billets. This was no amateur R&D. This was a multi development from a top Turbo designer/builder who designed and made a wheel that would work on my car. There were a few test wheels done. Flow testing against the 16g and Billet proves these new wheels flow more. Our times prove they produce more power.
Goo- bye 16g's an Billets we have move on.
It really is that simple. I can understand why your side of the pond doesn't like it, but believe it or not we might have just topped the K16 Turbo market for now.
TBH i dont really care less about the poletics of it all, as I get absolutely nothing from this except a 15k bill for my side of the all the R&D and supporting mods and a Car which is the quickest I have ever had. Even controlling torque with the EBS we are seeing 900nm. Ken is the one you really need to continue discussing the "nitty gritty" details of his kit.

I dont mean to be argumentative but your manor comes over to me as if I am just talking figures. Some times you have to Walk the Walk and that's what we have done. We have actually done it and it works. Simple as that. It doesn't matter what the critics say any more. It might have done at the R&D stage but its not. This was done at a top level of uK engineering and it will take Ken some time to get back his costs. Its a reality and i think Ken has sold over 10 kits so far in the last month or so.
Perhaps you should buy a kit from him? Mark ( Markski ) yes Markski is involved so you can say its no amateur set. He supplied the tune for the flow figures we gave him and the level of supporting mods. Then you could fit a kit , run some times and see how they compare to our runs. We dont talk about, think about , use , store or advocate Race Fuel. Its not available at fuel stations over here and you need a licence to store it on your property.
Understood and again I can appreciate the innovation and money/time spent. Kudos to you guys for actually doing tests and posting results under grueling conditions -its very rare to see that from tuners. My standpoint comes from comparing my "worst case" logs (sustained on/off loading at willow springs in the summer) with less boost (1.3 bar) showing more consistent and higher timing, more consistent IATS, leaner mixtures and virtually identical acceleration to what you've posted. Our engine load values literally sit on top of each other! I obviously can't match your 0-60 time being a 6speed but our 60-130s seem to be the same. Did the 16g and 16 billet cars you tested against have identical supporting mods as you do? What was the ambient temp when you did your testing?

I have no issue with which side of the pond things are happening on and actually prefer some of the points UK/European tuners seem to strive for (more emphasis on sustained loading and repeatable power rather than one hit wonder dyno pulls). However, we have seen 60-130s of 7 flat from 16g cars with NO supporting mods other than exhaust and a 5 bar FPR and pump fuel and low 6s with race gas (granted, they were done in very favorable conditions). I don't think there are enough data points or at least the ones we do have dont point to a clear K16 hybrid winner (back to my argument of they're all about the same).

FWIW, the 16g can move upwards of 39 lb/min but based on my VE calcs, our stock longblock motors (with the K16 hotside) dont need quite that much in the 1.3-1.5 bar range. Maybe its my .2 coolers making up the difference (why did you guys chose Bell cores for anything other than drag racing?), which again points to supporting mods being more important than which wheel goes in the little K16 frame.

I've got no secrets if any of you want to compare notes, my engine setup is pretty simple: Blouch 16gs, EPL tune, 60 lb injectors, Turbosmart EBC, .2 coolers, Remus exhaust with 100 cell cats, ported stock headers and Forge hoses with a dose of 94 (R+M)/2. I did the "kit" assembly, installation & testing myself so I guess you could say its "amateur".

Like Flyinguy, I too have considered billet wheels, zero clearance wheels, all kinds of K-16 variants to replace my "old tech" 16gs, but the data showing any perceptible difference just isn't there or its hidden from the masses for some reason.
 

Last edited by earl3; 02-13-2012 at 07:48 PM.
  #56  
Old 02-13-2012, 08:26 PM
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Hi Earl,I sent you a PM.....Thanks
 
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by johnspeed View Post
Hi Earl,I sent you a PM.....Thanks
working on it!
 
  #58  
Old 02-20-2012, 12:47 AM
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I have contacted Jake @ Tial. He said they don't usually do the billet 2868 upgrade, but waiting to hear back from him again regarding the matter. I haven't contacted Blouch, but I would imagine that is something they could also do...?

I appreciate all the advice. I am in for any more info anyone has. The argument of when the k16 hot side limits any extra power is a good one, and something I'm very interested in. I will continue to talk with Todd K and Jake @ Tial on the matter. Thanx very much guys.
 
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:58 AM
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Please keep us updated, I am very interested in this as well
 
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Old 03-29-2012, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by earl3 View Post

I have no issue with which side of the pond things are happening on and actually prefer some of the points UK/European tuners seem to strive for (more emphasis on sustained loading and repeatable power rather than one hit wonder dyno pulls). However, we have seen 60-130s of 7 flat from 16g cars with NO supporting mods other than exhaust and a 5 bar FPR and pump fuel and low 6s with race gas (granted, they were done in very favorable conditions). I don't think there are enough data points or at least the ones we do have dont point to a clear K16 hybrid winner (back to my argument of they're all about the same).

FWIW, the 16g can move upwards of 39 lb/min but based on my VE calcs, our stock longblock motors (with the K16 hotside) dont need quite that much in the 1.3-1.5 bar range. Maybe its my .2 coolers making up the difference (why did you guys chose Bell cores for anything other than drag racing?), which again points to supporting mods being more important than which wheel goes in the little K16 frame.

I've got no secrets if any of you want to compare notes, my engine setup is pretty simple: Blouch 16gs, EPL tune, 60 lb injectors, Turbosmart EBC, .2 coolers, Remus exhaust with 100 cell cats, ported stock headers and Forge hoses with a dose of 94 (R+M)/2. I did the "kit" assembly, installation & testing myself so I guess you could say its "amateur".

Like Flyinguy, I too have considered billet wheels, zero clearance wheels, all kinds of K-16 variants to replace my "old tech" 16gs, but the data showing any perceptible difference just isn't there or its hidden from the masses for some reason.
True info on 16g vs billet (both k16 based) would be great. Sounds like comparable results with various hybrid K16s.
 

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