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-   -   "normal wear " of rear tires (https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/356054-normal-wear-rear-tires.html)

BLKMGK Mar 7, 2016 07:14 PM

I've got the same issue, now on new tires. Mono toe links going in, lockouts for the adjusters will go in, I may do the LCA while I'm at it. I may go Tarett for the LCA although I'd love the 991RSR stuff Pwdr runs! Oh, I'm seriously considering the solid mounts for the subframe to bring it up 5mm and hope to not have too much NVH when done. Front done later I think. Right now my suspension is stock on coil overs and wearing the inner edge BAD!

Edit: I'm going with Torque Solutions toe links, does anyone know where to get boots for the monoball?

P.S. Alignment settings to ask for, I suspect that's a can of worms worthy of a sticky!

993GT Mar 7, 2016 10:03 PM

You do not need toe-links to get a proper alignment at 'streetable' heights.
You do need to get solid thrust bushings and LCA monoball to control suspension flex.
Dogbones are generally a 'waste' of money.
PM/Kussmaul settings are a good place to start

'02996ttx50 Mar 9, 2016 04:21 PM

i don't think many street driven cars will be pleased with the level of NVH swapping into solid sub frame bushings. ouch = overkill.

nick49 Mar 9, 2016 08:05 PM


Originally Posted by 993GT (Post 4483262)
You do not need toe-links to get a proper alignment at 'streetable' heights.
You do need to get solid thrust bushings and LCA monoball to control suspension flex.
Dogbones are generally a 'waste' of money.
PM/Kussmaul settings are a good place to start

I take it from your point of view, it's the increase of toe from movement of the steel bushings encapsulated in rubber or elastomer at the pivot points in the lower toe link and control arm rather than just the engineered in increase in toe from suspension compression.

BLKMGK Mar 9, 2016 11:55 PM


Originally Posted by '02996ttx50 (Post 4484228)
i don't think many street driven cars will be pleased with the level of NVH swapping into solid sub frame bushings. ouch = overkill.

I've heard conflicting stories on this. The GT2/3 have solid bushings and I've been told moving to them is negligible NVH. Have you tried them or know someone that has? Raising the rear subframe on my lowered car would help get some of the suspension closer to where it was designed to sit. I'm wary of swapping many pieces out for solid monoball, I'm just not sure which pieces will put me over the edge for a street car :(

pwdrhound Mar 10, 2016 12:03 AM


Originally Posted by BLKMGK (Post 4484365)
I've heard conflicting stories on this. The GT2/3 have solid bushings and I've been told moving to them is negligible NVH. Have you tried them or know someone that has? Raising the rear subframe on my lowered car would help get some of the suspension closer to where it was designed to sit. I'm wary of swapping many pieces out for solid monoball, I'm just not sure which pieces will put me over the edge for a street car :(

NVH from solid subframes is negligible. I couldn't tell any difference whatsoever.

flewis763 Mar 10, 2016 09:36 AM


Originally Posted by pwdrhound (Post 4484367)
NVH from solid subframes is negligible. I couldn't tell any difference whatsoever.

That's good to know being I'm about to put mine in.

Speaking bushing flex, and option for guys looking for stiffer but not full monoball setup is hard poly bushings. I got mine from powerflex and will be pressing them in on sunday. I have the lca bushings and toe link bushings. Dogbox I went torque solutions adjustable and then solid thrust bushing. Hoping to have very little flex now but not as expensive or harsh as a full monoball.

Just another thought to throw around. I'll let ya know how they turn out.

pwdrhound Mar 10, 2016 09:54 AM


Originally Posted by flewis763 (Post 4484598)
That's good to know being I'm about to put mine in.

Speaking bushing flex, and option for guys looking for stiffer but not full monoball setup is hard poly bushings. I got mine from powerflex and will be pressing them in on sunday. I have the lca bushings and toe link bushings. Dogbox I went torque solutions adjustable and then solid thrust bushing. Hoping to have very little flex now but not as expensive or harsh as a full monoball.

Just another thought to throw around. I'll let ya know how they turn out.

Save yourself the money and skip the dog ones. They're a complete waste of money and will be noisy as soon as you get any minimal play in the heim joints. Stick with OEM which are the same units used on 996Cup cars...

nick49 Mar 10, 2016 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by pwdrhound (Post 4484607)
Save yourself the money and skip the dog ones. They're a complete waste of money and will be noisy as soon as you get any minimal play in the heim joints. Stick with OEM which are the same units used on 996Cup cars...

I'm happy with my dogbones, it was a fun project to source the materials from 3,4 suppliers and assemble them myself. Lowered my car a lot and could get all the alignment parameters I wanted. Did the dog bones help? IDK, many posts I referred to here and elsewhere said they are a must to get proper toe and camber on lowered cars. If it's a waste of cash, so be it.

How would you weigh in on the rear suspension squat or compression vs. rubber supported bushing movement as factors contributing to inner rear tire wear?

On my own sub 30K mile car with stock motor, I'd say 10% vs. 90% or maybe even more favoring suspension squat.


I remember you stating you have very high spring rates compared to OE which in itself would eliminate a lot of compression during accelerating.

The only way to know, would be to remove the springs form your coil overs, set your static laden ride height and move the suspension through full compression measuring increasing toe incrementally. I do this stuff at work, I want to drive my car, not wrench on it.

I'd like to hear your opinions.

993GT Mar 10, 2016 10:53 AM

Correct, it is the flex in rubber components that compromises alignment/tire wear...go monoball and you can be more aggressive on alignment and still get better tire wear :)

Originally Posted by nick49 (Post 4484324)
I take it from your point of view, it's the increase of toe from movement of the steel bushings encapsulated in rubber or elastomer at the pivot points in the lower toe link and control arm rather than just the engineered in increase in toe from suspension compression.


pwdrhound Mar 10, 2016 11:34 AM


Originally Posted by nick49 (Post 4484628)
I'm happy with my dogbones, it was a fun project to source the materials from 3,4 suppliers and assemble them myself. Lowered my car a lot and could get all the alignment parameters I wanted. Did the dog bones help? IDK, many posts I referred to here and elsewhere said they are a must to get proper toe and camber on lowered cars. If it's a waste of cash, so be it.

How would you weigh in on the rear suspension squat or compression vs. rubber supported bushing movement as factors contributing to inner rear tire wear?

On my own sub 30K mile car with stock motor, I'd say 10% vs. 90% or maybe even more favoring suspension squat.


I remember you stating you have very high spring rates compared to OE which in itself would eliminate a lot of compression during accelerating.

The only way to know, would be to remove the springs form your coil overs, set your static laden ride height and move the suspension through full compression measuring increasing toe incrementally. I do this stuff at work, I want to drive my car, not wrench on it.

I'd like to hear your opinions.

You are absolutely correct Nick. Due to the nature of the suspension geometry on these cars (or any car actually), whenever you squat and/or dive your toe, and camber changes. Combine that with the change of toe during braking and acceleration due to the compression of the rubber thrust arm bushings and inter bushing in the LCA, you get a lot of tire wear. When you replace the LCA bushings like I've mentioned numerous times before, you eliminate a lot of the toe changes (which gives you the inner 1-2" of tire wear.

When you run firmer spring rates, you will minimize the above mentioned toe and camber changes in addition to minimizing bump steer. The firmer the spring rates, the less dive and squat, lean and bump steer you will have. Obviously the stiffer you go the better the shock you will need to control the spring rates. When going Cup stiff, you need motorsport type shocks with large pistons moving a lot of fluid with the slightest amount of shock movement. Shocks that fall into this category will be of the remote reservoir variety. These will allow you to run the type of rates I'm running for example without being overly harsh and giving excellent dampening with limited stock travel. Good performance street rates with quality shocks like JRZ (without remote canisters) will be in the 600-800 range. This will give you good streetabilty with excellent performance on track. Anything above 1000 will requite remotes canisters in my opinion. A high end JRZ remote canister shock with 1000# springs will ride better than a JRZ non-remote shock with 800 rates which will give you a better ride than an off the shelf PSS10 or H&R for example. A good shock makes a world of difference and there are several good choices on the market currently in the $4-5K range. High end remote canister shock set ups will run $7-10K or more with all the trimmings. I am currently doing a JRZ non-remote set up for a member here which in my opinion is the best street/track bolt on option on the market today. Full monoball front/rear upper mounts, monoball rear lowers mounts, adjustable nitrogen charge, Tarret extended front drop links, Tarrett rear drop links, and 600/800 rates. This is a very nice suspension for a 6TT/GT...

As far as the dog bones go, imho there is just very little benefit to these on track and none on the street. With the OEM parts you can get -2º camber with the stock eccentrics at even less than GT2 ride height. I run the stockers but I've run the adjustable ones in the past. I saw no performance benefit and they only got noisy with time and made it more of a pain in the arse as there was one more thing to adjust during alignments. I'm not saying the adjustables are bad, all I'm saying is they provide more downside than upside and I wouldn't recommend anyone spend money on these. Lots of vendors push these like crack which is understandable as there is a lot of margin in these part$.

Rob (993GT), I will have the shock 996TT adapter sleeves for you by the end of this month. I'll send you a PM when they come in.

splitime Mar 10, 2016 01:39 PM

Somewhat related question, as we are in a tire wear discussion.

I'm seeing lots of that wear on my rear tires (like many), H&R springs with Eibach Sways (alignment a few k miles ago), ~59k on the original bushings. I'm not sure if its the tires, alignment, shocks or bushings... but when i'm driving at around town speeds and one side hits a slight dip/pothole/etc... i get very odd shimmy/wiggle in the rear. It sort of rebounds side to side, doesn't feel like a shock issue... but being new to these cars I'm unsure what is most likely.

Is this something noticed as tires wear (seems unlikely, but can't hurt to ask) or am I seeing something that is likely some component of springs/sways/oem bushings.

flewis763 Mar 10, 2016 04:45 PM


Originally Posted by pwdrhound (Post 4484662)
You are absolutely correct Nick. Due to the nature of the suspension geometry on these cars (or any car actually), whenever you squat and/or dive your toe, and camber changes. Combine that with the change of toe during braking and acceleration due to the compression of the rubber thrust arm bushings and inter bushing in the LCA, you get a lot of tire wear. When you replace the LCA bushings like I've mentioned numerous times before, you eliminate a lot of the toe changes (which gives you the inner 1-2" of tire wear.

When you run firmer spring rates, you will minimize the above mentioned toe and camber changes in addition to minimizing bump steer. The firmer the spring rates, the less dive and squat, lean and bump steer you will have. Obviously the stiffer you go the better the shock you will need to control the spring rates. When going Cup stiff, you need motorsport type shocks with large pistons moving a lot of fluid with the slightest amount of shock movement. Shocks that fall into this category will be of the remote reservoir variety. These will allow you to run the type of rates I'm running for example without being overly harsh and giving excellent dampening with limited stock travel. Good performance street rates with quality shocks like JRZ (without remote canisters) will be in the 600-800 range. This will give you good streetabilty with excellent performance on track. Anything above 1000 will requite remotes canisters in my opinion. A high end JRZ remote canister shock with 1000# springs will ride better than a JRZ non-remote shock with 800 rates which will give you a better ride than an off the shelf PSS10 or H&R for example. A good shock makes a world of difference and there are several good choices on the market currently in the $4-5K range. High end remote canister shock set ups will run $7-10K or more with all the trimmings. I am currently doing a JRZ non-remote set up for a member here which in my opinion is the best street/track bolt on option on the market today. Full monoball front/rear upper mounts, monoball rear lowers mounts, adjustable nitrogen charge, Tarret extended front drop links, Tarrett rear drop links, and 600/800 rates. This is a very nice suspension for a 6TT/GT...

As far as the dog bones go, imho there is just very little benefit to these on track and none on the street. With the OEM parts you can get -2º camber with the stock eccentrics at even less than GT2 ride height. I run the stockers but I've run the adjustable ones in the past. I saw no performance benefit and they only got noisy with time and made it more of a pain in the arse as there was one more thing to adjust during alignments. I'm not saying the adjustables are bad, all I'm saying is they provide more downside than upside and I wouldn't recommend anyone spend money on these. Lots of vendors push these like crack which is understandable as there is a lot of margin in these part$.

Rob (993GT), I will have the shock 996TT adapter sleeves for you by the end of this month. I'll send you a PM when they come in.

Ya I bought them for the adjustability to set camber. Your right everyone is like you need these. I probabaly could have just replaced the rubber bushING with poly ones and been fine. We will see how long the joints last. I could always replace the heims spherical ends with bushing style ends. I have done that in the past on stuff when the spherical units wore out

993GT Mar 10, 2016 05:08 PM

Thanks John! let me know when you're ready :)

Originally Posted by pwdrhound (Post 4484662)
Rob (993GT), I will have the shock 996TT adapter sleeves for you by the end of this month. I'll send you a PM when they come in.


TXTurbo996 Mar 10, 2016 08:56 PM

Thanks for your posts pwdrhound. I too am about to buy a new set of rear tires because they are wearing unevenly (H&R lowering springs, adjustable solid dogbones, H&R rear adj swaybar) and any alignment specs I've tried have failed to correct the issue.

Do you think going with solid TA bushings would be enough? Or would I also need to add LCA monoballs? I am familiar with Tarett's offerings, is there another brand you'd recommend over them?

Thanks!


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