Do you happen to know the difference between the Bilstein Damptronic's and TechArt's? I know they are basically same, but curious to the differences in the settings. I found my TechArt's to be a little too less forgiving on the streets, esp the poor roads in San Francisco.

 

No I do not know, but interesting that someone was complaining of same problem with Techart recently: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-better-7.html . It is quite possible that Techart uses stiffer springs and/or revalve the damper to increase bump/rebound damping forces, but they keep it a secret so no one really knows. However, I should mention that IIRC, DaBrat's car has multiple other suspension components that would make his car stiffer, independent of the Techart coilover.
What other supsension mods do you have in your car?

As a last resort, if it bothers you that much, the springs in the Techart suspension could be easily and cheaply swapped out to Bilstein Damptronic springs, or Swift/Hypercoil springs, with both of these have known spring rates. I would start with same rate as the OEM Bilstein Damptronic 336 front/ 560 rear. Swift and Hypercoil are easy to buy, Bilstein springs I am not sure but my tuner Lucent Motors in Los Angeles was able to get them a while back.

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https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...-turbo-17.html
There are two places you could get springs that fit Bilstein: Hypercoil and Swift Springs. The springs you want to look for is 70mm ID, 6 inches long front, 8 inches long rear. The process is very easy and cheap - labor should be around 300-400 per axle.
Swift Springs: http://www.swiftsprings.net/products...r-springs.html
Hyperco: http://www.hypercoils.com/PDF/70mm.pdf
Currently my car is set at 448 front/600 rear - versus Bilstein's 336/560.
The front spring is Swift Spring part # Z70-152-080: Internal Diameter 70mm, free length 152mm=6 inches, spring rate 8 kgf/mm=448 lbs/inch.
The rear spring is Hypercoil part # 8P0600: Internal Diameter 70mm, free length 8 inches, spring rate 600 lbs/inch.
The springs are cheap and directly replaceable for the OEM Bilstein springs. If you are into more advanced level of suspension tuning, the springs are the place to play around and have fun with. It's an easy process and the change will be easily noticeable.

 

BTW, anyone who is interested in a serious and excellent track setup (as opposed to the Bilstein Damptronic, which really is primarily a street/occasional track setup) should definitely visit VID's thread below and see what he uses, what he does, and the incredible amount of work, time, and $$$ that he goes through to get his suspension tuned.

Note the interaction between driver and setup man. This is why I keep emphasizing that track-oriented suspension systems like JRZ/Moton/Ohlins require very advanced driver and setup man, and unless you are at that level and spend a lot of time at the track, it's not a good idea to use them.
This is because the setup man depends on input of the driver. You have to be able to tell him what you like and don't like about the car's behavior, understeer vs. oversteer, compliance, etc. It is then his job to correct and set the suspension the way you like. VID's description below is a perfect example of the desireable interaction (except for the part where they didn't listen ) .

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https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/240408-rain-shine-ls-re-11s-27.html
Yes, BRR has been fine tuning my set-up. JWE did the initial install and alignment number one. After testing for two days with them at SP, I took it back for some adjustments and to give them my feed back. Apparently my feedback to alignment number 1 wasn't well received and they did very little to correct it. It is very apparent from my videos alignment number 2 had tremendous under steer. I took it back for number three....when I picked the car up and I could immediately tell from its stance they did not listen to my feedback or analyze my videos. Yes, my times were quicker, but the car was very difficult to drive. Upon picking the car up from JWE after alignment number 3, I didn't even bother taking the car home. I drove it straight over to BRR at 5:30pm, told them my issues and showed them some in car videos. They too could tell just by the stance the car was not going to perform well. They have been fine tuning it, and managing it since then (alignment #4,5,6, & 7 this week). Every adjustment they have made has been realized, and as I have previously mentioned the car is just magical and almost like cheating.

 

This is a great write-up and your car looks awesome with it's new stance.

 

Cannaga, the above quote was just a quick recap...below is just a slightly more detailed summary we have been logging for reference/set-up history. Its just crazy, the amount of time and energy that has gone into this progression thus far....

03.15.13 Picked up from JWE and drove to SP. Street setting: Gold ***** were at 9 clicks in all four corners, Black 16. I was pleasantly surprised with how supple the car felt. In fact, it felt softer then my OEM struts with the CMS springs in the comfort setting/mode.

03.16.13 First test day at SP: Gold still at 9 on all fours, Black went to 18. After the first session I notice the vehicle had way too much body roll. It actually felt like I was driving with my CMS set-up in comfort mode and not the sport setting!
They recommended leaving it there and play with air pressure. My times did improve throughout the rest of the day and I set my personal best lap time to date.

03.17.13 Second test day at SP: Gold still at 9 on all fours, Black went to 20. Now the vehicle still felt softer then the CMS set-up in "sport" mode. I did two sessions at 20 and then two more at 22. Each time improving my lap times and yet again setting a personal best.

03.20.13 Back to JWE for alignment adjustments and to check all the torque spec's from the initial install.

03.30.13 First Race: Well as you recall the from the video, tremendous understeer. Car went back to JWE to be adjusted. They did very little if anything to correct the issue. I drove it straight to BR at that point.

04.07.13 BR set-up the car based on my input and in car videos coupled with their racing experience and suspension/set-up knowledge.

04.14.13 Test Day at BW after BR alignment and Set-up #1: Gold still at 9 on all fours, Black went to 23. Car felt better and the understeer was minimal (just a hint, but more likely due to the roughness of the track and driver error/first time there). However, oversteer had now been introduced.

04.15.13 Second Race at BW after BR alignment and Set-up #1: Gold adjustments 9 front and 7 at the rear, Black stayed at 23. This seemed to help with the oversteer characteristics and times yet continued to decrease.

05.10.13 Back to BR for event DL, video review, and tire wear analysis. New suspension parts were ordered to aid in additional fine-tuning and set-up, (Set-up 2 & 3)

05.20.13 Third Race at LS BR alignment and Set-up #3: We adjusted the rake and added additional negative camber all the way around. Car was amazing to drive. My feedback was, "its almost like cheating". The car was magical. New personal best time set yet again at LS.

SIDEBAR: 5.22 came to BR for a download. Brand new front left tire had corded after only four short sessions. I also mentioned I hit really hard at the bottom of the cork screw and thought I may have damaged my lower right control arm. Upon a visual inspection, everything appeared to be okay.

05.21.13 Test Day at TH: This is when I noticed my car really started "porpoising" and I had a difficult time braking into T2. I also drove in a brand new McClaren and I couldn't get over how much better his stock set-up felt, handled, and performed...my car was just terrible by comparison.... this may have been the first indication of shock/s failure.

06.03.13 Forth Race: Heavy "porpoising" and confirmation that something had definitely blown on the front right shock. The car was just a complete handful to drive, yet still besting my previous fastest laps and this was on a 92db day! Shocks are now getting shipped off to PSI for a re-build and Dyno-testing.

Once they come back and are installed, another test day or weekend will be arranged before the next race on my schedule at Sonoma.

If you decide to go down this avenue, you will need to be committed. I would not recommend "track" suspension for anyone DD'ing in conjunction with DE'ing. Cannaga Bilstein or my previous CMS system are perfect for that combination/level of driving. Its when you are able to push your vehicle beyond what those systems will mechanically allow...you will know when you are there...parts/equipment will start to prematurely wear out and failures will begin to happen more frequently.

Have a fantastic weekend!
Cheers,
VID

 

I have the TAs. Have been in search for the elusive answer as to what differences it may have from the Bilsteins, but am unsuccessful, which makes me come to the conclusion that the differences are minimal.

My guess is the the TAs use a different spring.

I have recently installed the KW V3s on my car and am in the process of setting them up. I found that spring rates on my crappy streets are less important than the ability to tweak compression and rebound.

I have tried recommended settings and they were too hard. Tried way soft and seems for my streets, softer is the way to go. So I'm tweaking the KWs on a pretty soft bump and rebound setting.

I don't have a final setting yet, so I don't want to make any premature conclusions, but my initial finding is, for bumpy roads, a softer setting is necessary. The TAs weren't soft enough and I have sat in a car with Bilsteins and they weren't either.

 

Repost, now with pictures!!

Suspension Mods Overview:
Suspension mod is easier to understand if you categorize the modifications. Then all of sudden, things will seem so simple ;-) and not so intimidating. I will arbitrarily create 4 categories:
1. Stiffer springs: this is the single most important mod in the Turbo and will transform the car. It is accomplished by using lowering springs (I recommend coilover but lowering springs serve their purposes) or using coilover , meaning springs + shock absorber, such as those made by Bilstein or KW/JRZ/Moton/etc. Positives: Stiffer and lower are almost always better in a sports car: less weight transfer (body roll, dive and squat), more precise response. Negatives: Ride versus handling trade-off is forever present - the law of physics. As handling improves, ride will suffer. Don't use Moton or JRZ because they are too stiff for street driving.
2. Alignment: involves toe, caster, camber. For all practical purposes, all you need to worry about in the Turbo is to increase front negative camber. Stock is -.8 or whatever, you want to increase this to minus 1.1 or so (the max possible). Positives: Negative camber increases cornering force/traction of the tire (allows you to corner faster), decreases understeer which is an inherent problem with AWD 997.1 Turbo (complicated, pls just trust me this is the case). Negatives: Excessive & uneven tire wear and straight-line traction/acceleration could be affected adversely if over-done.
3. Stiffer "other" components: This would fall into 2 categories:
A. Sway bar: used to fine tune the system, in particular the understeer/oversteer behavior. After market sway bars are not only stiffer, they have adjustable stiffness. In the AWD Turbo with inherent understeer trait, the recommended setting is soft front, stiff rear, to decrease understeer. Note that sway bar on stiff setting could have major effect on the comfort of your ride (very un-comfortable). Positives: Decrease body roll, adjust understeer/oversteer, stiffer front sway bar makes steering firmer and feel more precise. Negatives: Decreases ride comfort.
B. After market suspension links that use solid metallic bushing/joint, in place of stock rubber/neoprene bushing/joint. The links include rear upper links (dog bones), toe control link, thrust arm bushing, front camber plate, drop links, etc. Positives: Solid links increase precision and make cars feel more "planted"/precise. Negatives: Increase noise, vibration, harshness, some more than others. Also, these are wear-and-tear items and need to be checked periodically and replaced when the joints become loose (metallic joints/links don't last as long as rubber/neoprene joints/links).
4. Tires: Don't under-estimate this major component of suspension system, and never race another car that has superior tires! This means: R compound tires such as Michelin Cup or Pirelli Corsa. Positives: have inherent advantages: stickier rubber, stiffer wall. Negatives: Dangerous on wet roads (no traction, aqua-plane), takes time to warm up, noisy & stiff especially when old.

 

^^^
BTW, please keep in mind that just because I labeled all those links in the car does not mean I recommend for everyone to go out and change them all to after-market components.

In fact, unless you are an absolute track junkie (you know who you are - no name, just initials: V.I.D ) I recommend moderation in modding, because nearly 100% of the time, there always are trade-off's involved with modding, be it suspension, ECU/engine, exhaust, whatever. In other words, IMVHO:
a. Don't go out and buy everything that vendor X is offering and put it in your car. There has to be a goal and a reason for every component.
b. Do things in stages, so you could identify if any particular component is giving you trouble. Keep *all* stock components in case you have to go back to stock - they are expensive.
c. Remember the best change is "one component, one axle at a time," for the simple reason that you *have* to know cause-effect of each change.

Despite of my multi-page rambling, I in fact have done very little to my car: Bilstein Damptronic, GMG sway bar, and rear Tarett drop link. (Sharp eyed forum members will question me about the stiffer springs, but those don't count because I am nutty :-) and my area has many curvy mountain roads.)
I received frequent PM's about where to start with suspension modding, and the following has always been the answer: coilover, sway bar, alignment (more front neg. camber), drop link. That's it! Pure and simple and guarantee to turn our Turbo into an incomparable, world class daily driver, and to bring you to paradise :-).

 

This thread just keeps getting better! Great post Can!

 

I think Can makes a great point about being very careful about what your end goals are, and not just jumping into this. He is correct - unless you are a track junkie tread carefully. I became such a junkie I sold the turbo and bought a dedicated 996 track car. Haven't looked back and it's great (and a never ending money pit LOL).

The other thing that should be mentioned, and i'm not trying to get flamed here, as I was as guilty as any other "modder" is this. Doing anything more than a basic "street" setup as Can mentioned is a waste of money. if your just driving on the street. I thought I used to push my turbo pretty hard on the street. You will NEVER - and I repeat never, come remotely close to pushing a car on the street in a way that you will on the track.

I wouldn't mind having some of that cash that I used to mod the turbo right about now

 

Again thanks everyone for your inputs and kind comments.

 

Repost from another thread, regarding the importance of wheel weight and the latest BBS ultimate wheels. Up until now, for those who could spend the bucks and like the style (I don't really like it), the lightest and arguably best wheel for the Turbo IMHO is the BSS Fi.
BBS now has another wheel called Ri, which amazingly enough, is even lighter than the Fi primarily because it uses a different aluminum alloy. A7000 aluminum for Ri versus A6000 alloy of the Fi.
Fi's manufacturer's data:
19x8.5 et53 - 7.4kg
19x11.0 et63 - 8.0kg
So there we have it, the newly crowned King of Porsche Turbo Wheels (if you like the style and could spare the bucks).

Ri-D
http://www.bbs-usa.com/road-wheels-d...m?CLID=87&WF=6
RI-D GT-R - One Piece Forged Aluminum Wheels. Produced in Japan by Washi Beam using a special 7000 series alloy that helps make this wheel as light and strong as possible. Covered by U.S. Pat. D606,921 and European OHIM Reg. No. 000 803 952
Fi
http://www.bbs-usa.com/road-wheels-d...m?CLID=55&WF=6
FI - BMW - One Piece Forged Aluminum Wheels designed and produced in the Motorsports department. The ultimate wheels for performance minded BMW owners. Covered by U.S. Pat. D606,921 and European OHIM Reg. No. 000 803 952

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Aluminium alloy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The International Alloy Designation System is the most widely accepted naming scheme for wrought alloys. Each alloy is given a four-digit number, where the first digit indicates the major alloying elements.

• 1000 series are essentially pure aluminium with a minimum 99% aluminium content by weight and can be....
• 2000 series are alloyed with copper, can be ...and are increasingly replaced by 7000 series in new designs.
• 3000 series are alloyed with manganese, and can be ...
• 4000 series are alloyed with silicon. They are also known as ....
• 5000 series are alloyed with magnesium.
• 6000 series are alloyed with magnesium and silicon, are easy to machine, and can be precipitation hardened, butnot to the high strengths that 2000 and 7000 can reach.
• 7000 series are alloyed with zinc, and can be precipitation hardened to the highest strengths of any aluminium alloy.
• 8000 series is a category mainly used for lithium alloys.

 

TEN GRAND PLUS!!! YIKES!!!! They look more like "show" wheels and not strong enough for track work...

 

For anyone who may search for this information later: The wheels are BBS FI and RI, not 1.

Greg A

 

CANNGA: what do you think about GT3 sways, and the tarret drop links (front and rear), as they (tarret) sale the kit, for my 997.2TT....

do you recomend a different mix.... whhich is your suggestion????


thanks