A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource

Go Back  6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource > Porsche (Present) > 997 Turbo / GT2
Reload this Page >

A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

Notices
997 Turbo / GT2 20062012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

 
  #1  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:36 PM
cannga's Avatar
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,087
Rep Power: 247
cannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond repute
A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

Index of Important Posts
Dyno of my car: below, I've included both original GIAC dyno curve, and my own Durametric confirmation of the hp and torque gain using "engine load."
Durametric time measurement of GIAC tune from 2500-6000 rpm, actual Durametric measurement Here - Post 140 & 148 (Extremely interesting , read it!)
Durametric testing and resulting curves: Here - Post 138
Actual boost pressures of both stock and GIAC modes, both car's meter and Durametric measurement Here - Post 120
Boost curve by Durametric Here - Post 142


My humble opinions and recommendations regarding a BASIC Stage 1-2 mod for the ECU:
1. GIAC -Garrett Integrated Automotive Corporation is among the oldest existing US Porsche tuners. It is headed by Garrett Lim, an engineer who first started to tune Porsche in the late 80's, with the 959 among his first efforts. I found out Garrett is a Porsche nut like us, owner of a rather well tuned 996 Turbo, and even better yet, is a graduate of Cal Berkeley. (This has got to be a big plus as rumour has it that UC Berkeley has a lot of the brainy types :-) - go Bears!). GIAC is widely distributed in the US, its dealer network includes some of the biggest and most well known Porsche dealers and tuners; among them forum sponsors GMG, AWE, and the world's largest Porsche dealer, Champion Porsche/Champion Motorsports, and last but not least, my own tuner, Lucent Motors in Los Angeles. Those who purchase GIAC in California should most definitely ask if you could receive a custom tune; trust me you will thank me for suggesting this.
Anyway, my take from my visit to GIAC is that it is a serious, very tightly run, very well organized operation. The crew was enthusiastic, helpful, and spent time explaining & answering my amateurish questions. I enjoyed watching their systematic approach to tuning my car and appreciate that even though power is of course what we were going after (a nice, fat, and juicy torque curve), safety, smoothness and linearity of power delivery were definitely the emphasis and the rule.
Off Topic: Those in healthcare profession might be interested to know that Garrett has a degree in medicine, and amazingly enough, has remained board certified although his main practice only involves inanimate fast-moving objects for many years now :-).

2. Does it make a difference and is it worth it? Yes, yes, and yes! :-) See dyno & Durametric testing below. Done correctly, even with a stage 2 tune there is considerable power difference objective and subjectively. Objectively, clutch slip and real dyno's numbers are very obvious with a tune. Subjectively, once tuned, it feels like you are in a different car. Lag is significantly less and the car feels eager, *cat-quick*, and aggressive. An interesting sensation in my tuned car is that it feels like it's going downhill all the times, no kidding. This description is not an un-proven hype: I am confident of my finding because the GIAC tune allows me compare stock mode and tune mode with a push of a button on the flash loader (see picture below - there are buttons for tuned mode and stock mode) Benefits of GIAC Flash Loader. In short, if someone tells you a tune is not worth it, there is something wrong with his mod; it is that simple.
A couple more points: YMMV, but for me, the ability of the GIAC tune to switch back and forth between stock mode and tuned mode is critical and extremely desirable (among the tunes available for 997 Turbo, only one other company offers the same capability of switching on the fly). I would very highly recommend it for the reasons followed.
One, this feature allows you to evaluate the tune: if you don't feel the difference or don't like it for whatever reason, GIAC allows you to return the tune for a full refund. I had been a skeptical person about ECU mod and therefore found this feature a God-send: I don't have to rely on any salesperson's description, but could form my own opinions regarding the many differences, major ones and subtle ones, between stock and tune modes' power delivery.
Two, even now, I still like to switch back and forth because it is fun for me to have renewed appreciation of the increased power every once in a while. You do get used to the increased power and get bored otherwise LOL.
Three, it's a great long term monitor of whether the tune is doing anything bad to your car and it continues to be helpful. Really IMHO the abitlity to switch back and forth on the fly is the difference between flying blind and with instrumention ;-).

Custom vs Generic Tune

If you could, always try to have a custom tune. To be more specific, in a custom tune, the tuner looks at these important parameters: air fuel ratio, timing, turbo boost, shapes of the power curves, EGT, etc., etc., and adjust them to keep AFR and timing in range and to give a nice power curve, etc. In a generic tune, a generic program is loaded and while the boost curve is still high and therefore power increase is also obvious, these *other* parameters such as AFR and timing are NOT adjusted and *may* NOT be ideal, neither is the shape of the power curve, etc. I've seen the various curves (AFR, timing, torque) of a custom tune vs. a generic tune and they are *NOT* the same.
That said, what does this mean to the bottom line? Not sure LOL. Remember the dyno tune is a WOT run, and therefore, these parameters I mentioned are adjusted to be a ideal in that situation only, a WOT run. Whether it is ideal also in normal street driving, I would think so too, but it has not been proven. Second, it has not been proven that my custom tune car for example, is faster than an equal stage 2 non-custom tune car. In the end however, if you look any competent tuner in the eyes and he tells you that a custom tune is not better, you might want to fire him. :-) It *is* better, for all stages of power, at least in theory because all these parameters: AFR, timing, boost curve, power curve *are* ideally adjusted by the tuner. For me, it is clear that if you have a choice, I would pay extra to get a custom tune regardless of stage, but if this is not a choice, and particularly for lower power car, non-custom tune program is ok.
Of note, if you are in California, IMHO the de facto no-brainer tuner of choice is a GIAC and ask for a custom tune. That said, I should mention that there are of plenty of fast cars around that do not have a custom tune, so a generic tune does work as well. But tuners themselves *will* tell you that whenever you could, go for a custom tune for better overall performance, smoothness, power, etc.

3. The higher the power, the more frequent and significant the *potential" complications and problems, including engine blow-up (yes it has happened). Of the 4 stages of modding stage 2 is IMHO nearly 100% safe knock on wood LOL; as you add more hardwares and more power, as expected the potential of a headache will increase.
Stage 1: ECU
Stage 2: ECU + Exhaust - This is where my car is, a humble stage 2.
Stage 3: ECU + Exhaust + Intercooler
Stage 4: ECU + Exhaust + Intercooler + Turbo, etc.

4. How to evaluate a tune
A. Dyno horsepower numbers and graphs. Chassis or engine dyno continues to serve as the most critical instrument for tuning a car - this is how tuners develop their programs and how they know how much horsepower has been gained, what the power delivery curves look like, what simultaneous boost, air fuel ratio, timing, exhaust gas temp look like, etc. (They have the curves on a big screen monitor and look and modify according to what they see in these curves, as well as the raw data in the log.) However, the same could not be said about advertised dyno horsepower numbers. This parameter has beenso maligned and so manipulated that my advice to you is, ignore advertised dyno's. A tuner could alter the parameters of the dyno and give any horsepower number that your heart desires. The horsepower number game is just that, a game, used mainly for advertisement. That said, there *are* dyno's that you could trust: the ones that are done before and after a tune, on the same day under same condition.In other words, a single dyno is practically useless, but a *pair* of dyno's, one done before and one done after the tune yielded invaluable information and is how tuners tune cars.
When you evaluate dyno, don't just look at the max gain, look at the whole curve, from low to high rpm to see the the true gain. You would like to see a broad fat curve, for example the torque curve in the graph below. Why shouldn't you just look at the max gain? Because this is just one point in the wide rpm band; a tune could have high max gain at one point, but rest of the curve is not as good, and that would be bad ("peaky").
FWIW, a stage 2 tune generally gains about 10%; if anyone claims more than this, then your questions would be, one, is it real, and two, are they doing harms to the car by giving so much horsepower to a car without modified intercooler.

B. Times using VBox, most notably 1/4 mile and 60-130: This has become rightfully the de-facto standard for evaluating a tune because of the shenanigans with horsepower numbers mentioned in A above. And *the* place for monitoring ultra high power mods for tunes are kept at 6speed 996TT forum by MBailey: 6speedonline's official 1/4 Mile, 60-130, 100-150 and Standing Mile thread. This is where giants play and I don't venture there :-). Note that my observation has been that time improvements seem much easier proven for higher power applications than for the lower stages, such as stage 2. For my car with stage 2, a considerable and obvious subjective improvement is enough, for me anyway.

C. Times around a track, truly the bottom line as this measures both low end and high end, in curves and on the straights, IOW real world testing. The test has to be rigorously controlled: same car, same temperature, all parameters held constant except for the ECU, etc.; the driver has to have the ability to push the car 10/10 *consistently* (no amateur driver could do this, no matter what he thinks ;-)). Note that I would **only** trust professional drivers' evaluations; all anecdotal reports about "amateur-level friend of a friend" who is faster with Tuner A than with Tuner B should be ignored. An amateur driver, no matter how highly he thinks of himself, simply do not have the skills to push cars to absolute limits, and more importantly, the consistency in his driving. Amateur tests are also frequently poorly done and documented. Bottom line, and unfortunately: the properly done track comparison, because of its complexity and professional drivers' skills required, is unlikely to be ever carried out for a hobby forum like this.

D. Subjective evaluation: This is a personal evaluation and there is no doubt that even with a humble stage 2 tune like mine, you should be able to **easily** feel less lag and more power (if you don't, there is something wrong), and how linear that power delivery is. For example I have had two different tunes in my car and of the 2, the GIAC tune is the more linear one. (This is why I love the idea of a tune that allows you to go back to stock with a switch of a button: the ability to evaluate long term and to make sure there is nothing wrong with the car.)

5. Try to stay with one tuner and do not add components piece meal.For example adding the IPD plenum from one company, the header from EVOMS, the tune from GIAC: this is a recipe for disasters. When things go wrong, fingers will start pointing every which way.
Choose Champion/GIAC, Switzer, or AWE Tuning/GIAC, or whatever, but stick to the one company. You want to drop the car at their shop, and pick it up after one single tuner has done all the work. This way, if something goes wrong, there is only one person to blame.

6. If possible, use a local tuner close to where you live.This is utterly critical for higher-power applications: if things go wrong, you would like the ability to have the shop test drive the car and fix it on the spot. Long distance diagnosis are never fun and could be extremely costly and time consuming. I am aware the term "if things go wrong" has come up too often in this post, but that's fact: Stage 1 and 2 are safe, but beyond that, please use local tuner and use one tuner for everything.

7.Which one is best? See number 3 above. It's unlikely that there will ever be a trust-worthy test to show any one tune is "better" than the other.
First, it's impossible that such a gathering of different tunes and fair judgement will be made by neutral third party.
Second, subjective or objective? Objective is easy, subjective will be totally dependent on each driver.
Third, even objective is not that easy if you think about it. Say tuner A makes the car so much faster 0-60, but will not be reliable in long run because he jacks up the boost too much, etc., then is A still considered the best? The answer depends on what you are looking for and the definition of what is safe, etc. In other words, there will never be an agreement.
That said, I would recommend that you read the forum carefully. Not all tuners have the same experience, capability, and popularity, etc., and it's for you to ask and find out. ;-)
Fourthwhat is important is also dependent on where you are and how you use the car. For example, in the US and for daily drivers, the 60-130 times and subjective data are most relevant. In other words, IMHO heroic effort such as running car at 130 mph for hours and measure intercooler temperature is simply not relevant to 99% of US customers, for the simple fact that we NEVER could drive our car that way, as making sure that the car is very fast 60-130 and that it delivers power in the lower range smoothly, and the torque curve looks nice and fat, the AFR looks right, etc. OTOH, if you are to take the car to track, then yes, those tests would become not only relevant, but even critical.

8. No the tunes are most definitely *not* all the same. Because of unusual circumstances, I am among a very small group of drivers who have had two different stage 2 tunes in my car, one right after the other. (Long story short: The first tune made my car very noisy and had to be returned.) The 2 tunes to my surprise are night and day different from each other: one takes off very early and explodes off line, the other one's gain is much more linear, much more factory like, and still quite explosively fast. Which one is better? I prefer B but A sure was a lot of fun as well!

9. IMHO, do not add the following components unless they are specifically recommended by your tuner: after-market diverter valve (Very questionable value and not necessary. I seem to see more problems reported with this component than any others.), plenum, header, after-market air filter. It is difficult to find subjective or objective data to show that they improve something, anything. Do not get them unless your tuner specifically specifies them in their kit. The 3 most important and relevant hardware changes are: exhaust, intercooler, then the turbo; they make up the 4 stages of ECU tune for a reason.

10. Warranty issue, will "they" find out? At least for these Mezger Turbo's, the warranty is out for all 2007-2009 cars so therefore this is not that critical of an issue now. But yes, if the factory wants to find out whether you have tuned your car, 99% of times, they will know. OTOH, it is also true that Porsche is most mod-friendly of all companies and short of a total engine melt down, dealers may look the other way. For example, I know first hand of a car that has an ECU mod in it and needs the turbo to be replaced; the cause of damage (a leak) was deemed un-related to the tune and the turbo was replaced free of charge.
Also, I seem to hear and see evidence, here and there, that a certain very knowledgeable tuner with great familiarity with Porsche ECU has the ability to trick even the factory's ECU inspection, but I can't talk much further than this because the info is in PM with certain confidentiality. So please don't press me and don't flame :-). Regardless, the point is mute for Mezger Turbo's; you are on your own as there is no more warranty anyway.


ORIGINAL REVIEW:
Thanks to the crew of GIAC, I had a day in paradise for a car enthusiast yesterday: Watching the pro’s tune the ECU of my Turbo.
In case you don’t already know, the only addition to my car so far is the Cargraphic Loud exhaust. I’ve been shopping, and thinking about ECU tune for a year now. My hesitancy is partly related to warranty issue, and partly related to the fact that I use the car as a daily driver on Los Angeles freeways, don’t track the car, and occasionally take the wife on Porsche club drives. I therefore am a difficult and “enigmatic” customer: I would like more power, but not too much power LOL; and it’s very important to me that my car retains its daily-drive ability. Above all & at least for now, I don't want to have to replace the clutch, or any other hardware as a matter of fact (more on this later). In other words, if you are into killer horsepower and 60-130 times, check this "landmark" GIAC/AWE thread by eclou instead -- this car went to 186 mph at Texas mile: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...it-review.html .

My impression of GIAC, having spent a day “infiltrating” the office and facility: A serious, very tightly run, very well organized operation. That said, the guys were at heart car guys like all of us here. I’ve read about what Garrett has done in the past, and it’s a pleasure to finally meet the G of GIAC (Garrett Integrated Automotive Corporation). I found out Garrett is a Porsche nut like us, owner of a rather well tuned 996 Turbo, and even better yet, is a graduate of Cal Berkeley. This has got to be a big plus as it seems some smart people go to school there (ha ha, nudge nudge wink wink, go Bears!). The crew was enthusiastic, helpful, and spent time explaining & answering my amateurish questions (Thank you!). I still forgot to ask what that curve Motec AF is, and which way is good. LOL.

Garrett, Andrew, Austin, and my mysterious test driver whose name I don’t remember (sorry) worked on my car. There were a few dyno runs with the stock chip, then the program is loaded onto a spare ECU (My stock ECU remains original and "untouched." The spare ECU is avail. for $650 from Sunset Porsche, plus 200 or so from the dealer to load the original Porsche DME program, then the flash goes on top of this.), and then the crew went to work fine tuning the curves, with tuning dynos in between. For those with Cargraphic exhausts, this means GIAC now has a file that’s specific to the exhaust and I believe you should make a point to ask for this file specifically.

A couple of notes before I forget. I am loath to replace any hardware in my Turbo baby (since I think it’s the cause of many problems reported with modding, usually secondary to some kind of disconnect or installation problem), but I could have sworn Garrett and Andrew mentioned replacing the stock intercooler with something like the AWE intercooler about 20 times yesterday when I was at the shop. Or was it 25? :-) At any rate, this should give you an idea of how important it is in their eyes to lower Intake Air Temp.
The second thing I heard, this one only about 12 times, is how horrible 91 PON California gasoline is. And how I should try race gas at my earliest opportunity. Garrett, ever the car enthusiast, wanted me to try the higher octane stuff on the way home. LOL.

A lot of people have reported on ECU tunes so I have very little to add here, especially since mine is only a modest stage 2. But a few points for those on the fence, my preliminary subjective evaluation (specific to my car and personal preference and not meant to be "authoritative" in any way, shape, or form; we all have different goals for our cars):

1. Before the tune I was skeptical and worried whether I would feel a difference. You could rest assured the power increase is VERY SIGNIFICANT and very easily noticeable.
You’ve tried to run in the swimming pool, with water up to your waste? There is this heaviness to forward progression. That’s what the stock car feels like compared to a tuned car. My GIAC Turbo feels like it has a spring in the engine; springy and very light footed is how I would describe it. When you press on the gas pedal on the freeway, cars besides yours simply disappear like Star Trek's warp speed effect. I am NOT kidding.
The problem I have now is I keep speeding even when I know there are plenty of cops around. It’s very hard to resist. It’s fun.
It's interesting to note that when you switch the car from Stock to Tune mode using the wonderful Flashloader, it doesn't feel faster until after a while (I don't know how long this adaptation takes; I've not tested it enough.). I've been told this is because the DME does take time to adapt.

2. Lag (what happens when you press gas pedal at 4000 rpm, slight lag in response in stock car): Much less than previous, in both Normal and Sport Mode. This more linear engine response might be a subtle point but to me is a major reason why we should all upgrade our ECU.

3. Spool up (what happens when you really smash on gas pedal at 2000 rpm, power doesn’t kick in until 2800-3000 in stock car): Perhaps a bit faster, but essentially no change. You don't normally feel this effect since most of the times your shift will occur at above 3000. So basically in normal driving the car feels like it has a Naturally Aspirated engine.

4. The GIAC car feels very fast already in Normal Mode.Thankfully it retains some of the desirable "gentleness" of stock that I could use it comfortably in my daily commute in congested LA freeways. Most importantly, there is only mild noise increase and there is no resonance. The pedal response, to my relief, is stock like and allows for relaxed cruising when I want to. Performance wise, GIAC Normal mode feels halfway between Stock Sport and GIAC Sport.

5. In GIAC Sport mode, all hell breaks loose, and one has to be VERY careful around curves in this mode. That said, the power delivery is still linear. There is so much power here that the wimpy me actually drives in Normal Mode most of the times. Believe me on this one, the Sport Mode is insanity incarnate. The Sport Mode is slightly noisier as well, but still acceptable and there is no resonance at higher rpm.

6. Fuel Consumption: For obvious reason, not an important point. But FWIW, I haven't done a formal comparison yet but a preliminary glance at the MPG indicates I am leaving a rather large carbon foot print. :-)

Since all the ECU tunes on the market seem to deliver lots of power, besides power other factors that one should consider are: How the power is delivered (peaky versus linear), the throttle response (an overly sensitive throttle response bothers me, think of driving the car at 5000 rpm all the time), whether there is significant more noise and resonance, and how the exhaust note is changed. From my limited experience, I think it's possible that all ECU tunes, because of manipulation of ignition timing and AFR, make the car louder and affect the exhaust note. And the degree that each tune does this could vary significantly. Thankfully, the GIAC tune has very little effect on noise, resonance, and the sound of the exhaust note. So slight is the change that without the Flashloader for me to go back and forth to compare, I would have some difficulty noticing the change. And I am a Golden Eared Audiophile LOL. I breathed a sigh of relief when I first sat in the GIAC car; very much stock like with respect to noise. On a scale of 1 (stock) to 10 (bad), I would give a rating between 2 and 3, in other words, outstanding. With respect to the exhaust note, there is slight reduction of the low frequency guttural roar, and a slight shift to higher frequency. The rumbling is still there, but now I only trigger about 3 car alarms in the parking garage of my work place when I arrive in the morning. It used to be 5, 6. :-)

7. So what? Screw the warranty. Run, don’t walk, to your nearest GIAC dealer! Because the Flashloader has the ability to return your car completely to stock behavior if you don't like the tune mode (it works as advertised), you have absolutely nothing to lose :-), and everything to gain with this mod. I have some pictures to load later when I have time (very busy!), and video of one of the dyno runs if my kids teach me how to put it on youtube. And maybe when I come back from vacation, my report on higher octane gas.

Dyno result and my confirmation by Durametric testing (clutch did slip in one of Durametric runs and possibly during Dyno):
Note significant build-up of torque early on at 3300 rpm which is same as stock (important for street driving), and nice wide torque plateau . The car is a "humble" stage 2: simple tune + exhaust + lousy 91 California fuel, and yet you could clearly see what a HUGE difference this simple change makes. The Durametric testing is done by myself so there is no mucking around with the data. What a powerful and fun tool.

GIAC Time Improvement as measured by Durametric:
From 2500 to 6000 rpm (approx 38.5 mph to 92.5 mph)
Stock Normal 6.07 seconds
Stock Sport 5.88 secs
GIAC Normal 5.73 secs
GIAC Sport 5.38 secs

Below is Mustang Dyno of my car; in the second graph I confirmed the finding using Durametric. When you evaluate dyno, look at the whole curve, from low to high rpm to see the the true gain. You would like to see a broad fat curve, for example the torque curve in the graph below. Don't just look at the max gain, because this is just one point in the wide rpm band; a tune could have high max gain at one point, but rest of the curve is not as good, and that would be bad ("peaky").





Below is my Durametric testing of "Engine Load" parameter, overlaid on the chassis-dyno graph from GIAC. The red and green curves are from Durametric graphing the parameter called "Engine Load," the blue curve is torque curve from actual dyno. Note how the green Durametric curve for "Engine Load" follows the blue Dyno curve for torque - this is how you could use Durametric to test your car, a poor man's chassis dyno!
The bottom line is still Vbov time, or same day/same setting before and after dyno's, but Durametric is a lot of fun and a way to confirm what you tuner has done to your car. My max engine load is around 220 (stage 2 - exhaust only, shiiity California fuel), see if you could beat it . Note also the huge jump in torque - compare green curve to red curve: "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."









 
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	08AE3976-1.jpg
Views:	3365
Size:	93.2 KB
ID:	233751   Click image for larger version

Name:	08AE4304PSDesertGIACCORRUPTS-1.jpg
Views:	3580
Size:	137.9 KB
ID:	233752   Click image for larger version

Name:	CRW_0370setup2.jpg
Views:	3377
Size:	208.3 KB
ID:	234629   Click image for larger version

Name:	Can_997ttMainDynoStage2_zps3d3d27a4.jpg
Views:	2433
Size:	201.2 KB
ID:	314922  
Attached Images  

Last edited by cannga; 08-04-2016 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Updating of the initial review now that I have more time with the car.
  #2  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:50 PM
raclaims's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Jersey
Age: 48
Posts: 1,419
Rep Power: 79
raclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to beholdraclaims is a splendid one to behold
Awesome right up! I should have my GIAC flash done by next weekend...so now I'm even more psyched! Let me know how the intercooler is once you breakdown and get it!
 
  #3  
Old 06-20-2009, 02:38 PM
imcarnuts's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Area
Age: 67
Posts: 1,952
Rep Power: 164
imcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond reputeimcarnuts has a reputation beyond repute
It's about time Can. LOL Congratulations and welcome to the club. I am much more of an impulse person and did mine without a lot of research. There has not been a second that I have doubted my decision to flash my car or the selection of GIAC. Can't wait to read your follow-up posts after living with this for awhile. Sounds like the guys at GIAC really recommend the new intercoolers. I will have to consider them. Fortunately we have 93 octane in Pittsburgh (not to mention the Steelers & the Penguins.)
 
  #4  
Old 06-20-2009, 03:24 PM
eclou's Avatar
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 3,031
Rep Power: 194
eclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond reputeeclou has a reputation beyond repute
finally my son......

 
  #5  
Old 06-20-2009, 03:32 PM
bbywu's Avatar
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,845
Rep Power: 1002
bbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by eclou View Post
finally my son......
Actually, shouldn't it be:
 
Attached Images  

Last edited by bbywu; 06-20-2009 at 03:42 PM.
  #6  
Old 06-20-2009, 04:15 PM
TT Surgeon's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Age: 56
Posts: 6,410
Rep Power: 340
TT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond reputeTT Surgeon has a reputation beyond repute
What kind of HP graphs?
Congrats
 
  #7  
Old 06-20-2009, 05:48 PM
shawminator's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: US
Posts: 239
Rep Power: 23
shawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really nice
Great to hear, Can! Congrats on taking the 'plunge'. Given that I too have a Cargraphic Loud exhaust, I have been waiting with baited breath to learn of your reaction to the GIAC tune. I am especially reassured given your comments on GIAC having a file that's specific to Cargraphic. You mentioned that the exhaust noise only changes slightly in Sport mode. What about at initial start-up, any notable change in exhaust tone post-GIAC flash? Also, has the RPM level of your car at idle changed at all?

Congrats again and happy driving!
 
  #8  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:36 PM
cannga's Avatar
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,087
Rep Power: 247
cannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond repute
Bob,
I seriously almost fell off my chair laughing when your post came up.

eclou,
"Lord (Vader), forgive me as I know have strayed from the righteous path."

Duffy and anyone interested in more power and dyno curve,
Yes an upgraded intercooler like the AWE intercooler was mentioned several times as the thing for me to do to increase power. I am NOT going to bring up any absolute number here as we all know the Mustang could be manipulated to read any number one wants it to read, and the key is to look at the delta or percentage change, so... I vaguely recall Andrew showing me a dyno with an increase of about 10% in torque (about 50 lb-ft per GIAC settings) with an intercooler change. You do need to reflash the ECU -- free of charge I think.

As I have mentioned, it's possible I will eventually add it but at this time it's a definite maybe. I don't like to add hardware. I did this ECU out of peer pressure anyhow, not because I need more power really. BTW, adding the intercooler may or may not lead to adding the clutch. Someone on this forum has this package I think; I wonder if he needs a clutch yet?

In the same vein, for those who must know, the curve will come, but only as a climax to this thread. (I will leak some info that it's a nice torque curve with reasonable area under curve; but it's a stage 2, so don't expect eclou's numbers here.) But if you must have some numbers, the gain in horsepower of ECU + Cargraphic over Cargraphic by itself is about 8%. The gain in torque is 17%.
FWIW and curiously enough, the only equivalent data published for ECU tune in a car with Cargraphic exhaust is by Cargraphic itself, and the percentage gain there is 7% horsepower and 22% torque, if my calculation is right. It's interesting that the absolute numbers are totally different but the percentage gains are similar. A reminder again that one should only look at percentage gain or better yet, 60-130 times when comparing tunes. Note also that my car is on ****ty California 91 PON gasoline. The aforementioned tune is done by RS Tuning, sort of a powerhouse in Europe but not present here (designer of the Cargraphic exhaust).
Bottom line is you need 60-130 time, and that for sure is not going to come any time soon from me. I just took traffic school last year for speeding while listening to the Cargraphic exhaust, first day that I had it.

shaw,
I was also thinking of you when I mentioned that. Yes, I believe that Garrett specifically said that the file will be of special advantage to people with Cargraphic exhaust. (GIAC please correct me if I am wrong.)

There is no change in idle speed. Very little to no change in exhaust note or noise at Normal mode. The Sport mode is a little noisier at idle, but entirely acceptable, and once you drive, the noise is same as before. Basically, in my car sound and noise are not a problem.
Warning: I am an audiophile with golden ears (Grin. I used to sit for hours comparing how different speaker cables sound. And those cables cost as much as the ECU tune. No kidding. LOL) and untreated OCD , so when I say "little," it's possible others wouldn't be able to tell a difference.
The only difference, the deep, menacing gutteral roar when you tap the gas pedal at idle to 1500 rpm is still there, but it doesn't shake the car as much. Again, most normal people wouldn't notice this.

Chris,
Thanks!

Picture of the flash loader:





 
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_1136-21200ps_zps3ca6576d.jpg
Views:	1410
Size:	95.6 KB
ID:	373206  

Last edited by cannga; 05-10-2014 at 10:45 AM.
  #9  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:42 PM
cannga's Avatar
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,087
Rep Power: 247
cannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond repute
Setting up and adding measuring instruments (that's my car's test "driver" btw):



 
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	CRW_0366setup1.jpg
Views:	2733
Size:	196.7 KB
ID:	263042  

Last edited by cannga; 05-04-2014 at 12:14 PM.
  #10  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:52 PM
CTT-QTR's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Qatar
Posts: 262
Rep Power: 25
CTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of lightCTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of lightCTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of lightCTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of lightCTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of lightCTT-QTR is a glorious beacon of light
Congrats and enjoy your new beast

btw , your car looks clean ! is that guard red ?
 
  #11  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:52 PM
nyamg's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Long Island New York
Posts: 1,211
Rep Power: 73
nyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud ofnyamg has much to be proud of
Can, your write-ups are impeccable. These companies should be paying you for this great publicity. Anyway, congrats on the tune and enjoy it, can't wait till I join the club.
 
  #12  
Old 06-20-2009, 06:59 PM
shawminator's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: US
Posts: 239
Rep Power: 23
shawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really niceshawminator is just really nice
Thanks, Can. Your detailed, candid reviews have yet once again provided me with a great deal of confidence (not to mention excitement) around potential mods for my car. I've owned a number of normally aspirated Porsches and Aston Martins over the past few years, but I've never been bitten by the modding/upgrading bug like I have with my recently acquired 997 Turbo Cab. First I added exhaust, then wheels, now onto ECU flash, will it ever end? I sure as heck hope not...:-)
 
  #13  
Old 06-21-2009, 09:00 PM
cannga's Avatar
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,087
Rep Power: 247
cannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond reputecannga has a reputation beyond repute
OT

Duffy,
I was at Pitt in 1990 passing gas (training) for Thomas Starzl's group (plus cardiac transplant), had a great time and love the city!
BTW, I was mildly shocked to find out what the second profession of GIAC's principle engineer is (still board certified!). I guess some people are just born smarter than others.

997-QTR
Yes. Guards red with sand beige interior. Thanks.

Shaw,
LOL. The path to happiness for Turbo owners must pass through this prerequisite Triad of Suspension, Exhaust, ECU. Costly and time consuming, but incredibly educational and fun and I would not trade it for anything else in the (car) world.
 
  #14  
Old 06-21-2009, 11:29 PM
Fabryce@GMGRacing's Avatar
Former Vendor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Orange County SoCal
Posts: 5,552
Rep Power: 0
Fabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond reputeFabryce@GMGRacing has a reputation beyond repute
GIAC-- 4 letters to HP heaven!
 
  #15  
Old 06-22-2009, 07:03 AM
bbywu's Avatar
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: OR Room 5
Posts: 10,845
Rep Power: 1002
bbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond reputebbywu has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by cannga View Post
FWIW and curiously enough, the only equivalent data published for ECU tune in a car with Cargraphic exhaust is by Cargraphic itself, and the percentage gain there is 7% horsepower and 22% torque, if my calculation is right. It's interesting that the absolute numbers are totally different but the percentage gains are similar. A reminder again that one should only look at percentage gain or better yet, 60-130 times when comparing tunes. Note also that my car is on ****ty California 91 PON gasoline. The aforementioned tune is done by RS Tuning, sort of a powerhouse in Europe but not present here (designer of the Cargraphic exhaust).
Bottom line is you need 60-130 time, and that for sure is not going to come any time soon from me. I just took traffic school last year for speeding while listening to the Cargraphic exhaust, first day that I had it.
You could also go to your local drag strip....your trap time should be pretty reflective of the HP you're making, even if your 60' is slow.
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:
You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average.

Quick Reply: A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC


Join 6SpeedOnline
Visit our Sponsors

Contact Us About Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.