997.2 Turbo vs GTR
#77
11-29-2009, 08:57 AM
So slicks are worth 6s/minute. Jeez, it's a good job an SR8 LM doesn't use slicks, it'd be faster than Bellof's 956.
No genius, never have I said 3 second per minute, which would make the lap they did almost 5.5 seconds for the lap. It's about 3 seconds for every 1.5-2 minutes which could be + or - based on the track layout. But there have been cases of 7+ minute cars at the ring getting 8 seconds from stickier tires, so go figure. Either way, you still have no clue.
What we do know is that you keep quoting these 'facts' without any proof. Hell, let me give you an example of you: "If the GTR had ZR1 tyres it would be 3s/minute faster, putting its 'ring time near 7 minutes dead." See, it reads as BS. It's entirely unreasonable from any standpoint of objectivity. Not to mention that your quibbling over tyres is pathetic when the 911 tested already has $8500 worth of go-fast options.
What are you talking about, the GT-R tires as AT LEAST as fast as the ZR-1 tires, they are PROVEN to be as fast as R888's. I've shown the proof, it's right there on NAGTROC and has even been posted here. I can post links when I get ready, so if you are going to go on an assault to claim I'm making this up go ahead, but it only ends bad for you.
Oh god, here we get to the infamous stock ZR1/Z06 times. Without going into too much detail, whilst they're close on ET, the trap speed is nowhere near.
You're a lie there too, the same guy that ran the fastest stock ZR-1 time and has the fastest trap speeds, did the same in the Z06, and they are only 2-3 mph apart. So how is that no where near? More than few guys have trapped 129-130 in stock Z06's, the ZR-1 is only trapping 132's maybe 133 tops.
Care to state any more fiction that you made up? You are making this way too easy, but thanks I can use the laugh.
So what you really are saying is that GM could have forgot about the LS9, the CCB brakes, the suspension and the closer ratio gearbox and just gone with different tyres? In fact you're saying that GM actually made the car worse and only the tyres made it look better? This is some good stuff. Please invert yourself before addressing us any further.
No genius, never have I said 3 second per minute, which would make the lap they did almost 5.5 seconds for the lap. It's about 3 seconds for every 1.5-2 minutes which could be + or - based on the track layout. But there have been cases of 7+ minute cars at the ring getting 8 seconds from stickier tires, so go figure. Either way, you still have no clue.
What we do know is that you keep quoting these 'facts' without any proof. Hell, let me give you an example of you: "If the GTR had ZR1 tyres it would be 3s/minute faster, putting its 'ring time near 7 minutes dead." See, it reads as BS. It's entirely unreasonable from any standpoint of objectivity. Not to mention that your quibbling over tyres is pathetic when the 911 tested already has $8500 worth of go-fast options.
What are you talking about, the GT-R tires as AT LEAST as fast as the ZR-1 tires, they are PROVEN to be as fast as R888's. I've shown the proof, it's right there on NAGTROC and has even been posted here. I can post links when I get ready, so if you are going to go on an assault to claim I'm making this up go ahead, but it only ends bad for you.
Oh god, here we get to the infamous stock ZR1/Z06 times. Without going into too much detail, whilst they're close on ET, the trap speed is nowhere near.
You're a lie there too, the same guy that ran the fastest stock ZR-1 time and has the fastest trap speeds, did the same in the Z06, and they are only 2-3 mph apart. So how is that no where near? More than few guys have trapped 129-130 in stock Z06's, the ZR-1 is only trapping 132's maybe 133 tops.
Care to state any more fiction that you made up? You are making this way too easy, but thanks I can use the laugh.
So what you really are saying is that GM could have forgot about the LS9, the CCB brakes, the suspension and the closer ratio gearbox and just gone with different tyres? In fact you're saying that GM actually made the car worse and only the tyres made it look better? This is some good stuff. Please invert yourself before addressing us any further.
The ZR-1 has the advantage in hp, suspension, brakes and tires.
The Z06 has weight advantage. Rendering the the better suspension on the ZR-1 moot and the brakes too because they are stopping/controlling more weight.
When it gets down to it, you see the only advantage the ZR-1 has on a circuit is the tires, maybe on some higher speed tracks the top end acceleration will be better, but the braking and cornering still comes down to the tires.
Go a track and learn what you're talking about, I'm sick of fanboys who like to argue over what they have no clue about.
Derek's 800 hp GT-R can beat some guys in Cup Cars on high Speed tracks, but not the good ones, and all of that is hp down the straights. Considering Fuji is a ton of straights (especially the front straight) the mine's GT-R is only blasting down the straights, put them on a handling circuit and see what happens.
Last edited by heavychevy; 11-29-2009 at 09:16 AM.
#78
11-29-2009, 10:47 AM
Since when does the cost of a car have anything to do with being a BETTER car? The cost of the car has nothing to do with how good the car actually is yet is used as a basis for this test.
The GT-R chassis is whack, and without the help of extra grippy tires to cover the flaws, everyone would know it.
The GT-R chassis is whack, and without the help of extra grippy tires to cover the flaws, everyone would know it.
heavy, you made a comment that the Dunlops are 3 seconds faster than the normal Bridgestones. I've asked for this source 3 times now. Where is it? Did you just pull the 3s figure out of your ***? Because that's exactly what it sounds like. Why don't you claim the difference is 0.5s. Or 9s?
2ndly (and this is actually quite related to you unfounded comment), the GT-R was tested on its all-season Dunlops by C&D and posted a time similar to the Z06. Crap tires and crap tires. Isn't that leveling the playing field? You can't put it all down to tires. Given the Z06's specs, it should have completely demolished the lardy GT-R. It shouldn't even be close.
#79
11-29-2009, 11:03 AM
A+ Good strawman, would read again. Bring F1 cars into the discussion. The cars most unlike any road out of all racing classes.
It's faster than a GTR in a straightline, some 15% faster now, proving that it has way over 500hp, yet it's still barely staying in touch on track and is way out on Slalom. It's plain to see that the car's layout doesn't do it any favours in the handling department.
It's faster than a GTR in a straightline, some 15% faster now, proving that it has way over 500hp, yet it's still barely staying in touch on track and is way out on Slalom. It's plain to see that the car's layout doesn't do it any favours in the handling department.
I didn't say the benefits of the rear engine is seen in the handling, and even those figures can be swayed with the Turbo being on Cup tires. Recall that the old Turbo in the same-day test with the GT-R was faster in the slalom than the Nissan; that was with Michelin Pilots, not Cups. Some of the benefits cannot be objectively measured by a stopwatch. Go look at the Steering rating between these two cars.
That has nothing to do with my statement about the Turbo being profitable. You seriously think there isn't a massive profit margin on this car? Anything to do with them being bankrupt is likely more related to their failed takeover of VW combined with the recession.
Strawman.
Last edited by Guibo; 11-29-2009 at 11:09 AM.
#80
11-29-2009, 11:24 AM
Clearly you have no track experience to be coming out with broad generalizations like this. 6s/minute from tyres? So that would make an Audi R8 as fast as an Apollo Gumpert S? I've never heard such nonsense.
#81
11-29-2009, 11:27 AM
The cost is factored in when cars are somewhat similarly priced and of similar ability or layout; in this case, the GT-R is massively undervalued compared to how much it cost to actually build. This is good for the consumer. Almost every head-to-head test in German (and US) mags factor in price as a consideration, so its use here should be of no concern.
heavy, you made a comment that the Dunlops are 3 seconds faster than the normal Bridgestones. I've asked for this source 3 times now. Where is it? Did you just pull the 3s figure out of your ***? Because that's exactly what it sounds like. Why don't you claim the difference is 0.5s. Or 9s?
2ndly (and this is actually quite related to you unfounded comment), the GT-R was tested on its all-season Dunlops by C&D and posted a time similar to the Z06. Crap tires and crap tires. Isn't that leveling the playing field? You can't put it all down to tires. Given the Z06's specs, it should have completely demolished the lardy GT-R. It shouldn't even be close.
heavy, you made a comment that the Dunlops are 3 seconds faster than the normal Bridgestones. I've asked for this source 3 times now. Where is it? Did you just pull the 3s figure out of your ***? Because that's exactly what it sounds like. Why don't you claim the difference is 0.5s. Or 9s?
2ndly (and this is actually quite related to you unfounded comment), the GT-R was tested on its all-season Dunlops by C&D and posted a time similar to the Z06. Crap tires and crap tires. Isn't that leveling the playing field? You can't put it all down to tires. Given the Z06's specs, it should have completely demolished the lardy GT-R. It shouldn't even be close.
The lightning lap is a 4.2 mile (2:40-3:15 lap time) circuit and the Dunlop (equal to R888) could only beat the all season Dunlop by 3 seconds. The Bridgestones are even better.
What does that tell you?
Even the worst of the GT-R's tires are at least as good as a normal street tire (being around 3 seconds slower on a 4.2 mile circuit, nearly 70% longer than the 2.5). They feel like crap because of the cars chassis flaws (I.E. WEIGHT!). Need we get back into the durometer testing of just the Bridgestones from a while back that PROVES the compound is as soft as an R-comp (THE BRIDGESTONES!!!)? Or the recommended tire pressures that resemble a slick tire? You didn't believe me then either, but the back to back testing with the R888 just confirmed it.
Put the GT-R on real crap tires, like the goodyears on the Z06, and it would be curtains.
#82
11-29-2009, 11:37 AM
The ZR-1 is a better car than the Z06, but not because of the concept. The ZR-1 gains 200 lbs over the Z06 and only ~140 hp. Sorry but that is not the way to improve performance. The suspension is better and the brakes are better, but let's face it, no street tire is going to be able to use all of the ZR-1's power ever.
As fast as what? I see that a stock 997 C2 ran a 2:01 at Fuji, if you think a legit cup car is only 9 seconds faster on slicks, you're smoking something you shouldn't be. Didn't mine's bring their R34 over here with 800 hp and get spanked by a 996 Speed GT Cup Car with only 430 hp?
Derek's 800 hp GT-R can beat some guys in Cup Cars on high Speed tracks, but not the good ones, and all of that is hp down the straights. Considering Fuji is a ton of straights (especially the front straight) the mine's GT-R is only blasting down the straights, put them on a handling circuit and see what happens.
Wait for the times at the end:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUoH4D6hJeM
You're out-classed face it.
#83
11-29-2009, 11:45 AM
You can't make a generalized statement like that. It depends how much power you're adding and how much stickier the tyres are. I sincerely doubt that the difference between Bridgestones and Sport Cups is worth an extra 100hp for an AWD car.
Depends on the track, which you'd know if you did such. On short twisty tracks with short straights, long sweepers and lots of braking zones, 100 hp is not going to help you, because you can't stop any faster (in fact slower because you built up more speed on the short straight), and you can't corner any faster (in fact you made it harder to corner the same speed). Better tires will yeild a much better result than 100 hp. High speed tracks, the gap will be closer, but as long as it's not like a Lemans or something, 100 hp is still going to be behind.
These are things that most track guys know, hp is one of the last things you add to go faster on a circuit, tires are FIRST (or maybe second to suspension).
Depends on the track. These generalizations are astounding. 6s on a 1:30 lap from tyres? Give me a break. With AWD cars applying power out of a corner isn't so much of a problem. Maybe with RWD cars you may have more of a point but it's still a gross generalization. If you're telling me that a 997.2 on Sport Cups with 100hp less will run a faster time, that's just plain BS.
Go look at the GOTO racing GT-R, they went 2.7 seconds faster on slicks than shaved R888's and they did no suspension tuning on the slicks which could have gotten them even more time. Even with AWD. Wanna bet they'd be 3 more seconds slower on PS2's???? Someone here (me) seems to know what they are talking about, and someone else (you) clearly doesn't.
Clearly you have no track experience to be coming out with broad generalizations like this. 6s/minute from tyres? So that would make an Audi R8 as fast as an Apollo Gumpert S? I've never heard such nonsense.
Depends on the track, which you'd know if you did such. On short twisty tracks with short straights, long sweepers and lots of braking zones, 100 hp is not going to help you, because you can't stop any faster (in fact slower because you built up more speed on the short straight), and you can't corner any faster (in fact you made it harder to corner the same speed). Better tires will yeild a much better result than 100 hp. High speed tracks, the gap will be closer, but as long as it's not like a Lemans or something, 100 hp is still going to be behind.
These are things that most track guys know, hp is one of the last things you add to go faster on a circuit, tires are FIRST (or maybe second to suspension).
Depends on the track. These generalizations are astounding. 6s on a 1:30 lap from tyres? Give me a break. With AWD cars applying power out of a corner isn't so much of a problem. Maybe with RWD cars you may have more of a point but it's still a gross generalization. If you're telling me that a 997.2 on Sport Cups with 100hp less will run a faster time, that's just plain BS.
Go look at the GOTO racing GT-R, they went 2.7 seconds faster on slicks than shaved R888's and they did no suspension tuning on the slicks which could have gotten them even more time. Even with AWD. Wanna bet they'd be 3 more seconds slower on PS2's???? Someone here (me) seems to know what they are talking about, and someone else (you) clearly doesn't.
Clearly you have no track experience to be coming out with broad generalizations like this. 6s/minute from tyres? So that would make an Audi R8 as fast as an Apollo Gumpert S? I've never heard such nonsense.
Stop trying to magazine your way through this thread and act like you know what you're talking about. It won't work in this case, you actually have to have some experience dialing in the cars to know, and you have none because all of your references are magazines.
HAHAAH clearly I have no track experience, would you like to compare?
#85
11-29-2009, 12:01 PM
Still trying to find out how much these tyres are as an option. It's bad when you pay $140k for a 997.2 Turbo and then have to fork out for $20k in options just to give it a fighting chance against a $75k GTR.
That has nothing to do with my statement about the Turbo being profitable. You seriously think there isn't a massive profit margin on this car? Anything to do with them being bankrupt is likely more related to their failed takeover of VW combined with the recession.
Strawman.
Strawman.
#86
11-29-2009, 12:07 PM
just by switching to Sport Cups. That must equate to an extra lap every 5-6 laps.If you did, you wouldn't talk complete ****.
#87
11-29-2009, 12:10 PM
But you've just stated that the ZR1 tyres are good for 3-4s/minute. The ZR1 isn't 3-4s/minute better than a Z06, therefore you were saying that the ZR1 was an inferior car on equal tyres. You just never stopped to realise the consequences of what you'd said.
No, you just can't understand english, and I don't understand your seconds per minute, this isn't physics. No minute (on one lap) is the same from one track to the next, so that's a retarded way to look at it anyways. It's 2 seconds PER LAP!!!!!! Which is all the ZR-1 has managed to beat the Z06 by in head to head testing. The Z06 could very well beat the ZR-1 on ZR-1 tires.
As traction goes up, and the ZR-1 can put more power down, the Z06 loses ground, so beyond ZR-1 tires into R-comps/slicks etc. the ZR-1 would do better.
ENGLISH!!!!!!!!
Funny how it's still a faster car then. Still not clear here. Are you or are you not saying that a Z06 on Sport Cups is faster than a ZR1 on the same?
I've never said anything about sport cups. I've said everything I intended to say about ZR-1 tires. If you can't understand it by now, I can't help you.
Nothing to do with the Z06's leaf spring suspension then? This is complete nonsense.
The Z06 has proven to be one of the fastest cars around on some of the worst tire around. I think the leaf springs have proven to be sufficient. The results speak for themselves.
How is that nonsense when the car is undoubtedly fast on crap tires?
You just don't get it.
I'm sick of people talking out their hat.
Post some of your track videos and I will too, let's see who's hat has more in it.
Doubt it because the Mines R34 only has 630ps. It also runs 1:50 on Fuji SW, again on street tyres. There is no Porsche that can contend with either car in time attack on street tyres.
The GMG Porsche was a 996 Cup car with a stick shift and beat the Mines car on the same tires. What makes you think it wouldn't do the same on street tires? Take 997 cup with sequential, or RSR and you honestly think that? You are out of your mind. They would run circles around your tuner mobiles, with much less power to boot.
Open Class Tuner RB GTRs would rape anything Porsche can throw at them.
Even this?
And you do realize the track has changed some in the past decade or so to make the entry on to the front straight slower to reduce speeds. So that may not even be the same track you are comparing times to. But I'd take a measly old 450 hp RSR to run circles around Tuner GT-R's, especially on a track that isn't all about hp like Fuji.
You're out-classed face it.
No, you just can't understand english, and I don't understand your seconds per minute, this isn't physics. No minute (on one lap) is the same from one track to the next, so that's a retarded way to look at it anyways. It's 2 seconds PER LAP!!!!!! Which is all the ZR-1 has managed to beat the Z06 by in head to head testing. The Z06 could very well beat the ZR-1 on ZR-1 tires.
As traction goes up, and the ZR-1 can put more power down, the Z06 loses ground, so beyond ZR-1 tires into R-comps/slicks etc. the ZR-1 would do better.
ENGLISH!!!!!!!!
Funny how it's still a faster car then. Still not clear here. Are you or are you not saying that a Z06 on Sport Cups is faster than a ZR1 on the same?
I've never said anything about sport cups. I've said everything I intended to say about ZR-1 tires. If you can't understand it by now, I can't help you.
Nothing to do with the Z06's leaf spring suspension then? This is complete nonsense.
The Z06 has proven to be one of the fastest cars around on some of the worst tire around. I think the leaf springs have proven to be sufficient. The results speak for themselves.
How is that nonsense when the car is undoubtedly fast on crap tires?
You just don't get it.
I'm sick of people talking out their hat.
Post some of your track videos and I will too, let's see who's hat has more in it.
Doubt it because the Mines R34 only has 630ps. It also runs 1:50 on Fuji SW, again on street tyres. There is no Porsche that can contend with either car in time attack on street tyres.
The GMG Porsche was a 996 Cup car with a stick shift and beat the Mines car on the same tires. What makes you think it wouldn't do the same on street tires? Take 997 cup with sequential, or RSR and you honestly think that? You are out of your mind. They would run circles around your tuner mobiles, with much less power to boot.
Open Class Tuner RB GTRs would rape anything Porsche can throw at them.
Even this?
And you do realize the track has changed some in the past decade or so to make the entry on to the front straight slower to reduce speeds. So that may not even be the same track you are comparing times to. But I'd take a measly old 450 hp RSR to run circles around Tuner GT-R's, especially on a track that isn't all about hp like Fuji.
You're out-classed face it.
Let's see these tuner cars win something outside of Japan and then you can talk about class. Oh that's right, they don't.
#88
11-29-2009, 12:16 PM
Before we go any further, can we actually establish the tread-wear rating of Dunlop 600 DSST and the Bridgestone RE tyres? At the moment we're just working with bull**** from heavycheerleader.
#89
11-29-2009, 12:24 PM
No, you just can't understand english, and I don't understand your seconds per minute, this isn't physics. No minute (on one lap) is the same from one track to the next, so that's a retarded way to look at it anyways. It's 2 seconds PER LAP!!!!!! Which is all the ZR-1 has managed to beat the Z06 by in head to head testing. The Z06 could very well beat the ZR-1 on ZR-1 tires.
The Z06 has proven to be one of the fastest cars around on some of the worst tire around. I think the leaf springs have proven to be sufficient. The results speak for themselves.
How is that nonsense when the car is undoubtedly fast on crap tires?
You just don't get it.
How is that nonsense when the car is undoubtedly fast on crap tires?
You just don't get it.
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The GMG Porsche was a 996 Cup car with a stick shift and beat the Mines car on the same tires. What makes you think it wouldn't do the same on street tires? Take 997 cup with sequential, or RSR and you honestly think that? You are out of your mind. They would run circles around your tuner mobiles, with much less power to boot.
And you do realize the track has changed some in the past decade or so to make the entry on to the front straight slower to reduce speeds. So that may not even be the same track you are comparing times to. But I'd take a measly old 450 hp RSR to run circles around Tuner GT-R's, especially on a track that isn't all about hp like Fuji.
You do realise that change was in 2005.
#90
11-29-2009, 12:25 PM
Treadwear ratings mean jack as the tire manufacturer determines those. Compound makeup and softness combined with sidewall stiffness determine grip. And a durometer placed on the Bridgestone's showed they were as soft as NT-01's (or R888's I can't remember).
Just another bit of information you haven't a clue about. Keep going though, so everyone can see how much you try to act like you know but have no knowledge of.
Just another bit of information you haven't a clue about. Keep going though, so everyone can see how much you try to act like you know but have no knowledge of.