Well the thing with custom tunes is......you can set them up however you want. If you want to wring every single ounce of power out, at the expense of long-term durability, the tuner can do that for you. If it's the summer time and you want a bit more power, they can do that. If you want the car to hit harder down low, they can do that.

Don't fall for the UNTRUE belief that custom tunes are unsafe or anything other than these canned tunes are reliable. These basic tunes are pretty decent (usually), but they aren't cheap. And when you are talking about spending over $1000 for some tune that someone has saved in their computer and will just reuse over and over, it might benefit you to look at other options.

 

Even with a custom tune, you are ultimately limited to the maps that you can access. Most tuners purchase generic flashing tools that allow access to a limited number of maps. In the modern ECU's, there are a multitude of checks on each change you make within a specific map. If you do not have access to, or can't find the maps controlling these checks, you are forced to circumvent around them. This is done through zero'ing out certain tables or falsifying values. While this works and usually doesn't cause issues, you are still getting rid of a safety (check) that the factory intended to be there.

GIAC makes their flashing tools in house, and as such are not limited to a given set of maps. The benefit of this is that they can remap the entire ECU, including all checks and other control factors. Additionally, they can write their own maps and even write proprietary ECU code to enable new features. This requires an extremely lengthy development process, but ultimately results in a no compromises flash solution.

I am not saying this to target anyone specific, but saying a tune is "custom" is just as generic as saying a tune is "canned." Ultimately, you need to know what goes into this custom tune, and the depth of changes that you are able to make.

 

This is such a joke. By "custom" I mean, a dyno tune. There is nothing that you can do with your software that can not be beaten by a custom dyno tune .And we both know that. Dyno tunes give tuners (who ever it may be) the ability to tune to a range of environmental, and load conditions. AND, they will give you something to switch between maps. Giving someone a cable that allows them to connect to their car and switch maps is hardly revolutionary. They will allow a person that is more timid/inexperienced to be able to do something themselves, but the other options are nothing difficult.

The Porsche community is very conservative in their tuning methodology, when compared to other performance cars. And that's completely fine. But that mentality has also put them in a place where many owners are paying a premium price for a product that-while good-leaves the owners sitting short of what's fully possible. Many people over on this side are hesitant to go the route of a dyno tune, which is certainly fine. I just hate to see companies feed that fear by telling them that only their software can do this or that. Which is completely untrue. AMS, TopSpeed Motorsports, Protomotive, Switzer, BoostLogic are all companies that do a great job and will talk to any assist anyone that is looking to learn more info. They are also, all capable of doing a fantastic job with a custom dyno tune. Hell, even Cobb will tell you that while their product does a phenomenal job, nothing beats having the car there....in person...for them to tune.

 

I know what you were referring to, and that is what I addressed. Most customers who speak of dyno tuning are familiar with programs like HP Tuners, EFI Live, ECU Flash, Accesstuner, etc. On platforms that use these programs, yes a dyno tune will be better than a "canned" tune. This is because most tuners in these niches will be using the same flashing program, essentially making a level playing field. All tuners are working with the same maps, only making more incremental changes for each setup. Further, you will frequently see more customized hardware setups as customers get into new fuel systems, unique turbo setups, etc. In these cases, a dyno tune is pretty much required as there aren't tested files for such low volume setups.

You are altering tables for different environmental and load conditions with any ECU flash, as there are maps within the ECU dedicated to this. A custom tune will not provide any benefit here as the depth of the tables will be able to compensate for nearly all environmental conditions (as that is their purpose). Further, you do not receive something to SWITCH between maps. You receive a flashing cable to flash a new file. In this regard, GIAC's process is revolutionary because they actually load MULTIPLE files onto the ECU, and then give you a simple switching device to actually switch between them. This is a 1-second process, compared to using a cable to flash a new file on the ECU (5+ minutes).

Using the Porsche 997 Turbo as an example, there is no readily accessible flashing tool (for the average garage/consumer). As such, you will have variance in what each tuner can access within the ECU, and what maps are adjusted. Given the same tuner and same flashing tool, yes you will be able to make some more power with a "custom" tune due to making incremental changes. But again, you cannot make the generic statement that a custom tune will be better than ANY other off the shelf tune. Because unless you have an in-depth knowledge of every change your tuner is making (I'm not talking about AFR, boost, or the other things most are familiar with), you really have no idea what is being done to essentially force the ECU to make power.

Most Porsche customers follow the basic modification path of tune, exhaust, intercooler, and sometimes more. For these given modifications, there is very little "customizing" to be done. Given how dynamic the factory ECU is, there is simply not enough difference between part A and part B to warrant a new tune. Now if you start getting into new turbos, injectors, intake manifolds, etc. then yes a custom tune will be required because now you have an entirely new hardware combination.

Look at the 997.2 Turbo platform as an example. Right now, that platform is limited to basic bolt-on's due to the factory fuel system. GIAC's "canned" tune has set a bar that nobody has approached. There are company's offering custom tunes for that platform, and we have seen the cars run first-hand. You can ask longboarder, as he has raced directly against them. Given the same day on the same road, the advantages of a full ECU remap become readily apparent.

 

I read that the 997.2 fuel system can handle around 700whp...

other thing is that GIAC can't sell you the stage 2 file if you don't have the Champion ICs, nothing against Champion but there are a couple of good ICs out there with better specs.

GIAC stg. 2 tune put around 570whp, something that I bet a custom tune from a COBB protuner will get without any problem (with same bolt ons of course)

 

- 700whp is a relative term and can have extreme variance depending on the dyno. If the stock fuel system could make 700 wheel on a Mustang dyno, it would have been done already. All the other hardware is already there.

- What qualifies as better specs? Larger cores? I've seen logs from CMS IC's in many different environments, and I haven't seen anything that made me doubt their ability.

- Okay, how much are we betting? Disclaimer: I've already seen the results.

 

I seen as much as 660whp with stock fuel system,PDK, engine... But read somewhere 700+

There are bigger and cheaper ICs out there, good reason to consider other than Champion

How can you seen the result with COBB if tuners are still developing the .2 softwear???

 

If you've seen it, please post up the results. Because so far nobody has shown performance times that match what Champion/GIAC have put up. Again, dyno numbers are subjective, let's see the performance times.

We're fortunate to be in an area with early adopters

 

Well right now I only found 627whp...

http://www.awe-tuning.com/awe-9972-750r


So you are saying that your seen COBB tunerd having trouble getting to 570whp with the .2 softwear??? That no one is better than GIAC???

 

You realize that kit also uses GIAC software? Validating my point. Also, Champion has dyno plots with well over 600 wheel on a Dynojet, which are probably the dyno's you remember seeing.

And yes, as of right now it is my opinion that GIAC has the best 997.2 Turbo software by a large margin.

 

I said I remember seen 650+whp on .2's whatever kit, tune or shop involve

Well you said it then... COBB is a piece of .... And GIAC is the awnser, oh but wait it have to be Champion (that are also the best out there, period

 

If someone wants to put the time and effort into testing as much as Champion has done with their parts, then share it with us, that's fine. Our #1 priority in recommending hardware parts is a guarantee that what we're going to quote you in terms of performance gains becomes a reality. If we weren't strict and customers were using intercoolers that might cool well, but aren't efficient enough, the car won't make enough boost (or will have to work harder to produce it thus generating more heat) and won't yield the performance we quote. The unfortunate reality in a situation like this one is that we're more likely to be blamed for the lack of performance rather than the intercoolers. The same can be said for a pair that might flow well, but doesn't have the cooling properties that a CMS intercooler kit can produce.

How do we bypass all of this? By using what we know works perfectly and gives the results that we and our customers demand.

 

I respect that because is your name on it and you relay in a third party to deliver (champion)

But to be honest with you I know there is at least one ICs kit that can produce the same results that the champion ICs, and I repeat that I don't have anything against champion, its just that I will want to have option with this stg 2 tune

 

You'd need to do a large amount of testing to quantify that. They might look decent on paper, but where we've seen most fall short are on long pulls 80 km/h - 250 km/h, etc.. We have a dealer in sweden who does 0-270 km/h pulls to test these. He's tried with a number of different coolers that were all better on paper and none were even close to producing better results in the real world. That said, this is hugely off topic for this thread.

 

Hehehe yes your right... I believe AMS have a good shot in there .2 IC's kit, fantastic results with there .1 kit.

But I open a thread to discuss this

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...7-2-turbo.html