Hello members,
Im looking to purchase 2008 911 Turbo and hired third party to perform the PPI with DME report.

PPI check list are good to go but Im concerned about the DME report from what I read on many different forums.
Would you please review the DME report and also dealers comment?
I dont have the operating hours yet but i should be getting that soon.

Porsche dealer Sales rep:
-those are not excessive. Excessive would be double digits over 50.
-If the car was with in spec to be CPO coverage by age, it would pass with no isses. They allow up to 20 in each range.
-To get the operating hours is a huge task, and time commitment. Since ive been with Porsche, I think Ive had that done 2 times...and that was for a GT2 and a Carrera GT.
-You are the first person I have ever seen want a leak down test on a car that's is newer than 1999. With the computers etc now, that's just a waste of money.
-The cars will actually hit 11,000 RPM with over boost I have been told....So 9000 is not unrealistic.
-The over rev report is fine for this calibur car with Turbo's....


What do you guys think about the DME report and the comment from porsche dealer sales rep?

 

All DME readouts I have seen give the operating hours and number of ignitions for each range...that information is not at all difficult to get so someone is being disingenuous here.. that readout looks funny to me as each over-rev should show when they occurred as well as the number of ignitions...also, those over-revs in the highest ranges can cause permanent damage and result in a denial of warranty coverage by Porsche so I find it peculiar that a Porsche salesman would make that claim...any chance this isn't a Porsche dealer selling the car?

 

Thanks for your input
Vehicle is on sale by Porsche of Wallingford, working with Senior Global Brand Ambassador is his title.
Pre-owned 2008 Porsche 911 Turbo
PPI done by Musante Motorsports at dealers bay referred by Porsche of Wallingord.
They first recommended daniel Jacobs llc for PPI but didnt workout as they wanted the vehicle to be inspected at their facility and Porsche sales rep declined the request due to insurance issue? DanielJacobsLLC told Porsche dealer that they are bonded and fully insured but Porsche didnt approve transporting the car out of their lot.

 

That all sounds ok but I am puzzled about the DME readout as all over-revs stored in the DME also indicate the engine hours when they took place. I'm sure some more knowledgeable members will chime in as to the severity of those in the highest range but that PDF you attached looks odd.

 

Im waiting for the operating hour report from Musaten Motorsports, I'll post it once i get it.
What do you think about the price range should be considering the DME report?
PPI rated high 9 with leak-down test 1% on cylinder 2 & 4, 0% on 1,3,4,5

 

ok so Musante Motorsports did not get the operating hour at the time of performing PPI at dealers bay and asked dealer for that and dealer responded

"to get a tech to do this is gonna take time as downloading the VAL and then filing through it take time. It’s the better part of 150 pages.
If you require the operating hours and the pics, it will cost you 3 hours of labor at $189 per hour. Total would be $567.
Because you required a leak down, we had to take the car apart for Chris (Bumper, plus, wheels exhaust), and it cost me, not you or Chris, $956 in labor charges for my technician. It took him 3 hours to take it apart and 3 to reassemble. I am not charging for that, and we will eat that cost...
If you want to move forward, I will need a credit card to get this accomplished."

I thought operating hour shouldve supplied with DME report at the first place to properly read the data., and dealer sales rep completely turned his attitude from first few conversation we had back and forth..

now his throwing typical sales speech "I can assure you this the nicest and cleanest 997.1 Turbo in the US. There are a few people vacillating on the car. etc." but wants to charge $567 for an operating hour..

I asked for an opinion from 911virgin.com same as my first post and they responded

"I don't agree with what you are being told by the sales rep. I could do with knowing how the operating hours relate to the over rev's in order to give you meaningful advise."


whats your thought of current situation?

 

Most DME reports I have seen show the overrev count and the hours at which they took place. I'm not sure why the salesperson is saying that's hard data to get...the full report should show total engine hours and engine hours at which the overrevs took place.

Overrevs in the 5 and 6 range can be pretty serious and are usually indicative of a missed shift. Judging by the low counts in range 5 and 6 the overrev count was probably the result of an isolated missed shift and the driver caught it very quickly. On the upside the overrev counts in ranges 3-6 are pretty low. Ask the salesperson for a complete report, which includes hours, or ask to speak with the technician that ran the report.

A huge plus here is that the leakdown numbers look very good. If there was mechanical damage to the valves or valve seats as a result of the overrevs it would show up in the leakdown. Leakdown numbers like the ones this car is showing tells me the rings are seated well and the valves are seated nice and tight.

Moving on to the comments made by the salesperson:
*Excessive overrev is really up to the buyer. What is acceptable to some is not to others. His opinion is meaningless here, it's what you're comfortable with.
*Ask to see, in writing, the CPO policy in which up to 20 overrevs in any range are allowed. I can't imagine a scenario in which a car with any overrevs in ranges 5 and 6 would ever qualify as a CPO car.
*Operating hours should be part of a complete DME report...or at least the ones I've seen.
*People ask for leakdown tests all the time. A car doesn't need to be older than 1999 to have washed cylinders, cracked rings, bent valves, bad guides, etc. In fact, on a car with overrevs in the 5 and 6 range I would demand a leakdown test to make sure the valves were not bent or seats damaged. I've been to dealerships where salespeople show customers how cool a car sounds by starting it up and bouncing it off the rev limiter like it's a harley. There's nothing wrong with asking for leakdown data on a car, regardless of age.
*His comment about these cars revving to 11K in overboost is just plain stupid. More boost does not change the engine's redline.
*The overrev report being fine is, again, his opinion.
The sales guy may be dishonest or he may be uninformed, you'll have to make that determination.

Most people, by default, run away from cars with overrevs in the 5 and 6 range. Perhaps others here will disagree but if this is a nice car that drives well and runs strong, personally, I would go for it since the overrev 3,4,5 and 6 numbers are so low and the leakdown numbers came back showing the motor is sealed up tighter than a salvation army drum. You can use the overrev count as part of your negotiating strategy as most people may run from this car for what is, in my opinion, the wrong reason.

I hope this helps and good luck.

edit: Don't pay a dime for the additional DME data. If you're serious about the car tell the salesperson that he needs to be serious too and show you when the over revs took place. If he has other buyers that are willing to ignore this info then there are other cars out there. His claim about the having the nicest 997.1 in the country is his opinion and likely very far from the truth. Typical salesman BS of "Hurry up and buy it before somebody else does and you miss out". He is right about the leakdown test being a tough one to conduct, but it is in his best interest to have the test results so he shouldn't have any issue paying for it.

If you're not 100% confident in the car just walk away. There are lots of nice cars for sale out there, especially if you are willing to travel.

 

I had a complete DME and head to toe PPI done by S Car Go Racing in NorCal last week on the car I bought, took 1hr and was a 5page report plus the DME. They are wasting your time, I'd move on...

 

Those 4-6 numbers are so low they are probably computer glitches. Even if they're real, it's academic since the actual valuable and relevant information is right in front of you: the car runs fine, passes PPI, compression test, etc. Also, as everyone's said, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to give you the hours they occurred at, it's part of the data table and takes zero effort.

 

thank you for all the input members!
@Red911TT - I was almost comfortable with DME without operating hour reading your comments until the sales rep changed his attitude and being very defensive.. keep comparing me to other buyers he dealt with in the past.
@FirstStateCamber - dealer replied for not getting the full DME report is that the dealers newly acquired the test equipment did not have the earlier software in in that could read the 2008.

@GT3 Chuck & @Red911TTI - I took your comments directly to the dealer sales rep as below and they responded.

me:
Sorry for my response as im bit puzzled of your comments and strongly disagree on many of what you said

Your comment about these cars revving to 11k is overboost is just plain wrong, more boost does not change the engine's redline.
As for the DME data, what good is it without an operating hours that shows the overrev count and the hours at which they took place?
This is not a hard data go get, actually this is the first time im getting the DME report without an operating hours on it.

Overrevs in the 5 and 6 range can be pretty serious causing permanent damage to the motor.
Would you be able to provide a CPO policy in which up to 20 overrevs in any range are allowed as this is first time hearing this from Porsche.
I just cant imagine a scenario in which a car with overrevs in range 5 & 6 would ever qualify as a CPO car. This will actually void the warranty as well.
Believe me most people, by default, run away from cars with overrevs in the 5 & 6 range.

I understand that it costed your technician for Musante motorsports to perform the PPI but please understand that im serious and committed buyer who also spent $584 on Musante Motorsports PPI with your referral and DME report came without an operating hour...
Doenst need to be today but I would like to request for a operating hours on DME report from your technician without charging fees.

With all these said, please be serious with me selling the car and not throw meaningless sales speech like claiming this is the nicest 997.1 in the country, likely very far from the truth.

Would you be willing to continue to work with me selling this vehicle?

Dealer sales rep responded:

I do wish to continue this sale, however, what you are requesting, are while simple, take time, and money.

Yes you paid Chris $584, of which I am sure he is grateful! However, he did not bring his computer here, the tech had to use ours, and our systems are not back dated with the old technology. The PIWIS testers are something that get updated, and we have the most current levels, and not older products. I also do take the onus for not telling Chris no on the leak down test as we were not being compensated for 6hrs of labor to disassemble the car and reassemble that we are not out on.

Per ownership and the GM, we will not proceed with any further work on the car., with out being paid for the things you need or want, or a nonrefundable $500 deposit and a commitment to the car.

Also, Porsche does not have it in writing on a CPO inspection about the stages, it is done internally. If it exceeds the counts, it will put a block on it.

Also, I have been with Porsche since 2006, and have dealt with these cars and the buyers in every facet....I appreciate your opinions and insights.. In my 11yrs, I have never had this many requests on a car. We are a branded franchise...This is not a corner dealer. If all the work we have done, and the services performed, and inspection of the car are not enough...I am not sure where else to go.


The ball is in your court....We have been accommodating and getting everything you requested as minor and not necessary as it is. So, we can either part ways, or collect the credit card and move forward.

**

Any suggestion how I should proceed or negotiate the deal? their posted price of $84995 seems pretty up there for what it is. what would be the reasonable price?
And Im all the way in west coast so transporting this vehicle from CT to CA would cost min. $1k I think.

 

Sounds a bit troubling to me...how could any Porsche dealer not have the proper PIWIS to diagnose older Porsches...what does he mean by older technology? These cars are all obdII, which became standard in 1996....if that is truly the case it's their problem not something you should have to pay for...while I agree the leakdown numbers are very good it doesn't mean those high range over-revs won't result in an early failure down the line due to stress on the crank and rods...get yourself a Calif car and avoid the shipping cost and any possuble smog issues

 

The dealer is sort of rubbing me the wrong way but I bet the car is perfectly fine and it's important not to make mountains out of molehills with these DME numbers that don't even exist on 99.9% of the cars people buy every day without issues.


Have you personally seen an example of this?

 

My .02 are:


1. The salesman is a tool bag and if he has been working there for 12 years he is very bad at his job. 11k rpm from overboost on a mezger? I would have asked to see see someone that had a clue because I would NEVER trust another thing out of his mouth.

2. The Range 3-6 overrevs are just phantoms glitches from the computer. Range 3 over revs indicate will include those that happened in range 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 because it measures the number of ignitions in that RPM range or anything above it. As a result the range 3 on this DME would read a MINIMUM of 15 (at least 1 from range 3, 7 from range 4 + 5 from range 5 + 2 from range 6). Numbers that low it are physically impossible if it touched range 6. To only record 14 ignitions in that range, the engine would have to have slowed from 9500rpm down to 7699rpm in less than .05 seconds which is twice as fast as it takes you to blink.....aka it is impossible to slow the engine down that fast.

Example: 7,000 rpm = 116.7 revolutions per second and there are 3 ignitions per revolution which would give about 350 ignitions every second.

The 6 ranges can be broken down as:
Range 1: 7300-7500 U/min
Range 2: 7500-7700 U/min
Range 3: 7700-7900 U/min
Range 4: 7900-8400 U/min
Range 5: 8400-9500 U/min
Range 6: 9500-11000 U/min

 

Thank you Skwerl
Thank you 93ls1rx7

I forwarded the email convo to GM & Technician @ Porsche Wallington and GM called me right back to address the uncomfortable situation and some of the things the sales rep. commented on email.

couple hours passed, sales rep just sent me a picture of operating hour via phone, just a pic, no msg, no hello, just a pic
i think he is trying to tell me that he is pissed at me for directing the email to GM.. =/

Here is the operating hour, they are ok?

 

Yeah, everything past range 1 is 200 hours old, which is more than enough time to evaluate and see that the engine is fine. Typically problems surface almost immediately if you money shift and break something.

I'm still convinced they're probably a computer glitch regardless, and the actual meat of the report (1-3) is quite good.