Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch - Page 4 - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource

Go Back  6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource > Porsche (Present) > 997 Turbo / GT2
Reload this Page >

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

Notices
997 Turbo / GT2 2006Ė2012 Turbo discussion on the 997 model Porsche 911 Twin Turbo.

Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch

 
  #46  
Old 06-29-2018, 12:16 PM
SamboTT@ByDesign's Avatar
Basic Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: L.A.
Posts: 5,896
Rep Power: 705
SamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond repute
Damn, I hate those damn “blade-off events” haha
Maestro as usual thanks for the detailed insight!

08697 getting close!!!
 
__________________


Proud TOP Porsche Distributor For:

Kline-Innovation - ams Performance - TiALSPORT/XONA - #1 COBB PRO TUNER - SRM - IPD Plenums - SACHS - dodsonmotorsport

Dedicated Customer Service Since 1998. - 310.600.1850 [email protected]
  #47  
Old 06-29-2018, 12:27 PM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Damn, I hate those damn ďblade-off eventsĒ haha
Maestro as usual thanks for the detailed insight!

08697 getting close!!!
Sam you have a great way of looking at things lol

I can say that over the years of abusing almost every kind of turbo I have never seen a blade off event - not sure if that happens in the 997 arena. Most turbo failures I have seen on other platforms have come from heat damage to the tips of the turbine wheel when it over spins and is hot the tips melting off
 
  #48  
Old 06-29-2018, 12:49 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,437
Rep Power: 220
The Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond reputeThe Bogg has a reputation beyond repute
Maestro, thanks for the free education my friend.
 
  #49  
Old 06-29-2018, 12:55 PM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
Maestro, thanks for the free education my friend.
Amen - amazing insights
 
  #50  
Old 06-29-2018, 01:52 PM
M3 Maestro's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441
Rep Power: 121
M3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond repute
Guys you are welcome and yes I have seen this failure on a 997 turbo. Actually I think it was on this forum. Its hard to pick out unless you are trained, I would say most people will bucket the failure under bearing failure because it will also wipe out the bearings (because it goes unbalanced and it happens at high speed, secondary failure). I can recommend some books for those interested, just PM me. Maximum Boost is great but way too high level for some of the interest you are expressing, you need something more in depth, something closer to what I would use to help train a new engineer.

We also see these failure modes in aerospace, anyone in that industry knows what I'm talking about lol.
 
  #51  
Old 06-29-2018, 02:15 PM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Guys you are welcome and yes I have seen this failure on a 997 turbo. Actually I think it was on this forum. Its hard to pick out unless you are trained, I would say most people will bucket the failure under bearing failure because it will also wipe out the bearings (because it goes unbalanced and it happens at high speed, secondary failure). I can recommend some books for those interested, just PM me. Maximum Boost is great but way too high level for some of the interest you are expressing, you need something more in depth, something closer to what I would use to help train a new engineer.

We also see these failure modes in aerospace, anyone in that industry knows what I'm talking about lol.
Yes - I noticed what was going on with GE jet engines lately
 
  #52  
Old 06-29-2018, 09:55 PM
Jeff Kay's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Boca Raton, Florida USA
Posts: 397
Rep Power: 34
Jeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud of
Nordstorm???? Im looking for Neiman Marcus level
 
  #53  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:32 PM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks to Sam @ By Design for fast attention and assistance is resolving my clutch situation I was armed with the right parts to proceed promptly


Moving right along
 
  #54  
Old 07-01-2018, 01:13 PM
SamboTT@ByDesign's Avatar
Basic Sponsor
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: L.A.
Posts: 5,896
Rep Power: 705
SamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond reputeSamboTT@ByDesign has a reputation beyond repute
Really excited about your project buddy. Always a big thanks to my amazing team that helps me knock out multiple cars a week worldwide!
 
__________________


Proud TOP Porsche Distributor For:

Kline-Innovation - ams Performance - TiALSPORT/XONA - #1 COBB PRO TUNER - SRM - IPD Plenums - SACHS - dodsonmotorsport

Dedicated Customer Service Since 1998. - 310.600.1850 [email protected]
  #55  
Old 07-02-2018, 04:55 AM
Premium Sponsor
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 583
Rep Power: 136
stef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond reputestef@europipe has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
I made estimates for another member here using Europipe with upgraded VTGs and I think I was spot on based on the difference in performance he sees on the track vs. a similar car but with catless Europipe.
Weíve never sold a catless exhaust for a 997.1 Turbo so thatís intersting. Do you have more info on this car?

Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
Assuming the same geometry, we can model it fairly easy. Its harder to model lets say your Europipe vs. a Kline catless. Too much geometry change for 0D.
Let me help you, Iíve tested many aftermarket exhausts over the years on my otherwise stock 997.1 Turbo. Here are some of the backpressure results:

Stock 60mm exhaust: 0.44 Bar

Kline 2 1/2 inch catless: 0.25 Bar

Classic 3 inch X-pipe catless: 0.18 Bar

Europipe 60mm 100 cell: 0.18 Bar

Europipe 3 inch 100 cell: 0.12 Bar

Regardless of cats or no cats, the tighter the X and the smaller the perforated tubes the higher the backpressure.
 
__________________
[email protected]
www.europipe.be
  #56  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:23 AM
Jeff Kay's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Boca Raton, Florida USA
Posts: 397
Rep Power: 34
Jeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud ofJeff Kay has much to be proud of
Iím assuming the lower number is better? Why?
 
  #57  
Old 07-02-2018, 06:55 AM
M3 Maestro's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441
Rep Power: 121
M3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Weíve never sold a catless exhaust for a 997.1 Turbo so thatís intersting. Do you have more info on this car?



Let me help you, Iíve tested many aftermarket exhausts over the years on my otherwise stock 997.1 Turbo. Here are some of the backpressure results:

Stock 60mm exhaust: 0.44 Bar

Kline 2 1/2 inch catless: 0.25 Bar

Classic 3 inch X-pipe catless: 0.18 Bar

Europipe 60mm 100 cell: 0.18 Bar

Europipe 3 inch 100 cell: 0.12 Bar

Regardless of cats or no cats, the tighter the X and the smaller the perforated tubes the higher the backpressure.

Stef a member from the forum I talk to offline is a customer of yours. He is actually quite happy with your product and shares his experience with it on the forums. He mentioned to me Car #2 has a catless Europipe...how they made it catless I don't know. They could have gutted the cats or cut them out completely and replaced it with a pipe. Anyways he mentioned how Car #2 is faster than his with the same or similar mods, one of the differences noted is a "decatted" 3" Europipe. I said we can estimate how much restriction he(car #1) has in his Europipe at his exhaust flow with the information you have posted before. So I calculated what his restriction was at his power level and it came out to "x" psi so I converted that into a HP figure and he said that sounds about right based on the performance delta between the cars. How reliable is my calculation? We do this daily in industry. My conversation with that member was private, if he wants to post about it here obviously he is more than welcome.

I appreciate you posting the additional numbers including Kline now I can make more estimates

Yes there are losses associated with the X pipe and yes the tighter (smaller area) the X is the worse it will be like you mention. There is an additional loss not mentioned which is delta pressure taken from a tight u bend and or cheated radius. Anything tighter than a 1.5R/D (Radius/Diameter) is not great.

I have owned 3 exhausts so far (Kline to a BBi to a Kline again). I moved to the BBi because it was ful 3" and I wanted to gain additional headroom in flow capacity as my project grew. However the droning in the cabin was just way too much, I think it lasted a week max 2 weeks on the car. Material and construction was excellent, outside sound was good, exhaust tips were perfect...drone was terrible (to me). Luckily BBi was nice enough to refund me the money. I turned around and bought the same exact Kline I had before. Europipe was actually on my list as I can appreciate the quality in the part. However it was more than I wanted to spend on the exhaust obviously this does not take away from the product just my personal choice.

In all honestly, I will only be 100% happy with something I would build myself however the hard reality is I'm just too busy now with my career and my free time I dedicate to my family. Maybe one day I'll make something. While I was going through engineering school I also worked designing, prototyping, testing, and approving production of aftermarket hardware including exhaust. I can relive the glory days
 
  #58  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:14 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Doing some research - I came across this thread

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...e-settled.html

Keep in mind this particular guy's set up uses the slightly smaller cats than the europipe system

Doing my research on the PE 153mm cats on the europipe they are rated at 900 hp per set and they cost about $950 each

I am unsure at what power level the europipe cats would become a limitation - however - after doing my research it seems as if they are without any doubt the best high flow cats you can get for these cars

Obviously a straight tube is the best exhaust system but the obnoxious sound and fumes are what leads us to compromise and seek a more refined exhaust system
 
  #59  
Old 07-02-2018, 09:29 AM
M3 Maestro's Avatar
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Iowa
Posts: 441
Rep Power: 121
M3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond reputeM3 Maestro has a reputation beyond repute
08957 this is the exhaust I was referencing maybe on another thread, I can't keep all of these posts straight lol. My comments were if you can make the cats large enough then you can maintain good performance however you will find limits as you go up in exhaust flow.

Cats being rated at X HP is absolutely terrible and almost useless lol. But I understand this is done to make it easier for a customer to pick one and it helps protect part of the IP. What we actually need is a restriction curve to properly apply them. Having a plot of restriction as a function of exhaust flow will now let you pick the right one. This would be provided by the suppliers as you are spec-ing new engines and they are bidding on the business.

Since we don't have that I'm using Stef's published numbers to back that out and make my own.
 

Last edited by M3 Maestro; 07-02-2018 at 09:41 AM.
  #60  
Old 07-02-2018, 10:32 AM
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Connectiuct
Posts: 242
Rep Power: 35
08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute08957 has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by M3 Maestro View Post
08957 this is the exhaust I was referencing maybe on another thread, I can't keep all of these posts straight lol. My comments were if you can make the cats large enough then you can maintain good performance however you will find limits as you go up in exhaust flow.

Cats being rated at X HP is absolutely terrible and almost useless lol. But I understand this is done to make it easier for a customer to pick one and it helps protect part of the IP. What we actually need is a restriction curve to properly apply them. Having a plot of restriction as a function of exhaust flow will now let you pick the right one. This would be provided by the suppliers as you are spec-ing new engines and they are bidding on the business.

Since we don't have that I'm using Stef's published numbers to back that out and make my own.

I am not disagreeing with anything that you say

I just note that after careful research I looked into the HJS web page and noted that the cats that Europipe uses are the highest HP rated and highest flowing cats that HJS makes - period. I can not verify the 900 hp figure but by way of reference these 153mm 100 cel cats used by Europipe are the highest rated high flow cats of any sold by HJS - in fact they are made by a 3rd company and sold by HJS

There is no doubt that a high flow cat of any kind is going to cause some thermal load and possible restriction in flow

However, if you look at the tread I posted above at the kind of power levels I am targeting at least one tester tested the next smaller sized HJS high flow car vs. a straight 3" tube back to back on a dyno and saw no gains of any kind
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:
You have already rated this thread Rating: Thread Rating: 0 votes,  average.

Quick Reply: Custom tuning w/ By Design - lots of power - need new clutch


Join 6SpeedOnline
Visit our Sponsors

Contact Us About Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.