Manouver question - ice, steep driveway, summer tires
 

I have a bunch of ice on my driveway, which is is angled about 15 degree for 40 feet. The steep part of the driveway hill is constantly shaded, so salting isn't very effective. I'll put down some sand tonight...but it will still be super slippery. I do have a turn-around spot.

Here's the dillema:

I don't have winter tires on a C2S, yet....and need to move it on Friday early AM. I've never driven it in conditions this icy. I'm expecting it to be a balmy 15 degrees F.

Do I attempt this manouver in reverse?..or turn it around and go down the slope forward?

If this was my nieghbor attempting this, I'd be the first one with a video camera. It would fun to watch someone decapitate their own mailbox post...especially in a $ports car.

I would not move a car without chains or studded tires on an iced 15deg slope in 15F weather. Good luck and report back!

Does your neighbor have a video camera and can we get his number? :D

Get your neighbour to film it...

Last year I had to move my car home from the shop (after being stuck there for a month), I used ice melter and shoveled all the ice from the main street to my driveway...yes it was a lot of work, but these are low cars and the OEM tires will not give you any grip if you get hung up on some ice.

So...would you attempt it in Forward or Reverese? Getting snow T's isn't going to happen before Friday.

Ground clearance shouldn't be an issue. I've removed all the loose snow. The residual surface ice has been glazed by the sun and 40mph wind. I could invite the canadian P-drivers in here to come down and play hockey.

Maybe I exagerated about about the slope of my driveway... It might be closer to 10degrees, not 15....but still enough that many rear wheel drive cars can't climb it in winter. (The previous owners had to park their cars in my neighbors extra spots during really snowy/icy days.)

I'll see if my wife can film it. I don't know if I'm man enough to post it though.

BTW - Has anyone ever used those terrain-assist thingies with a P-car? (They look like folded up plastic ramps on hinges to help people get out of the muck).

-Mike

If you HAVE to do it - get to home depot, buy 2 big buckets of salt and pour it all on that slope.
Or better change you opinion on why you HAVE to do such a strange act.

Not to be to nosey, but what is the reason you HAVE to move it on Friday?

However, I'm subscribed to this thread and can't wait for the video :)

I drove a high-powered RWD car in Duluth, Minnesota for three years, and yes, we had a steep driveway like that to deal with. The surface was brick. Going up was a real tire-burner. Not to be recommended. Only a California-born engineer would have considered the attempt. What I would do is carry as much speed as possible into the turn, since the road was packed snow. Then I'd hit the power moderately as soon as the car was aligned with the driveway. This got me halfway up, whereupon the tires started slipping, but if you throw caution to the winds, the tires begin to heat as they spin. A trick I learned as something not to do when competing in autocross events with that car. Once heated terribly or possibly as a consequence of it, they would burn through the ice. This bought me another foot or two. With luck, I could delicately let it fall back a foot or so and get enough traction on the hot bricks to accelerate enough to gain another foot or so before starting the spin-and-burn process once more. Eventually, a couple of feet at a time -- with all the neighbors coming out to watch the carnival -- I would reach the level top of the driveway leaving a clear trail up from the road, with steam rising from it as the cooling bricks evaporated the ice melt running back over them. This entertained the kids too. "Ooh! Daddy's coming home!"

All in all, the tire wear is not worth it. Buy snow tires. I will say that sand and salt will help a lot in those temperatures. Mind you, that was an annoyingly warm day in Duluth's Winter. Like natives, I learned to prefer the days well below fifteen, because that's about the transition point. At fifteen and above, the sun and traffic will begin to melt the snow and create a miserable slush. Below fifteen you have that packed snow, which is actually quite easy to drive on. On the level...

Now. Going down those slopes. And we had a lot of them in Duluth. It's a very hilly town. It's like racing in the rain. You have to have the car aligned properly for the exit point before you start down the slope (or across a hydroplaning area of the track). And you have to have an exit strategy. You have to know that you'll recover enough traction to steer at the bottom of the hill/driveway before coming up against solid objects, like parked cars, buildings, rock walls. What have you.

I was doing that in a Camaro model that was the precursor of the Z-28, the 350SS. It had a reasonable departure angle, so I didn't hit the pavement with the exhaust as I came down the driveway gaining speed from mere gravity, since you definitely don't want power on the downslope. And don't brake either for God's sake. Certainly not in an old Camaro, but I don't think ABS would contribute anything either. Not on ice.

Bottom line? I wouldn't like to do that in a 911. Cayenne maybe, with a big departure angle, but unless you can get traction on that driveway somehow you're going to leave behind that frangible black strip on the air dam when you come to the abrupt change of angle that is put on roadsides to create a natural gutter effect.

I'd spend some time today buying those very low profile chains and get them on your car this evening. Yeah, yeah, I know how much of a pain it is at minus fifteen. Or in fact at minus forty, so it won't be much more fun doing it at a balmy, but slushy, plus fifteen. But I think it will save damage to the front of your car.

Oh yes. Forgot to say: definitely forward unless you are very good at backing and you have documentation that the rear departure angle is a lot better than the front. In front, you just damage the air dam. In back, you're talking about much more expensive parts. And you're probably not as good at backing as you think you are unless you've done a lot of those sillycrosse events that include high speed backing and turning. Or... I suppose... if you've done this driveway trick a lot in the past.

I didn't have a turning area, so I had to back out. Not fun. Go down frontwards.

only forward, and, do you have any sidewalk on that driveway? even it is in snow - if you can keep wheels from one side on gravel/snow - you will have less chances to slide down as one big brick.

Best idea would be to have big SUV with hauling winch on the top of the hill and attach its rope to you towing hook in case if you loose traction and start sliding.

So my questions are:

• when will the neighbor/wife post the footage?
• what is at the bottom of the slope? runoff? Tree? wall?

Salt works until the temp gets so low that the lowered melting point of salted water is still too high for the temps... but that gets salt on the car. If its a temporary move, go get some sand in the interim.

If its a constant problem year over year, I'd consider putting in some heated driveway there, or changing the type of paving material to something less prone to ice over.

All a Canadian wants is a little ice, a stick, and puck and we are happy for a few hours!hilarious

I would go forward, at least you will be steering in the right direction.

Good Luck!

Salt it then wait at least an hour for it to work. Use the big salt crystals, not table salt. You'll at least get traction on the salt even if the ice hasn't completely melted. Drive forward.
Cut the trees down that are creating the shade. Use their branch ends on the ice for traction. Only seems fair.
As long as you're moving the car, stop off and get those winter tires.

You might as well go ahead and call the flatbed tow truck. They can either stand by to clean your car up and take it to the body shop, or they can load it and drive it across the ice for you.

yeah why do you HAVE to move it? this all sounds scary!! cant wait for the vid!

lol. :)

I used to store my winter tires at my parents home when I had a 350z a few years ago. One year, ice came early and the day I went to put the tires on, I had to go up their driveway which was barely 5 degrees. It was one hell of an experience, the car would keep going sideways, I had to take a huge risk by rolling all the way back down to the street and gaining speed on the street before going up the driveway (i.e. risking to hit one of the post between the two garage doors...

As others have said, summer tires and ice do not work period.

What i don't understand is, will you be going downill or uphill at 15 degrees?

If it is downhill, you should just rolll down at very very slowly letting go of the brake gently each time.
If it is uphill then it all depends on stuff like ground clearance and obstacles on the end of driveway. If there is nothing to hit and you have good ground clearance, you should gain speed while inside the garage...

BUT, if you don't make it, at 15 degrees, you stand the chance of sliding back into your garage walls etc

I would buy lots of road salt and gravel bags, this stuff not only melts the ice, regardless of shade or not, but the little pieces of gravel help with traction...

And finally, don't do it unless you absolutely must. Its not worth the risk

I can only tell you this. When I bought my C4 in 2000 I had summer tires on it. Went out in the first snow storm because I had to get somewhere, big mistake!! Getting going was not to bad, but stopping or turning was dangerous. Wnet about 1 mile and decided to turn back. On the way back I had to go down a hill, maybe 10 degrees or so. I went very slowly, with maybe 1/2 inch of snow on the ground, no ice as it was about freezing out. Kept it to 5-10 mph on the hill. Came to a stop sign and put on the brakes, heard the ABS as I slid, and slid, and slid, and slid, right thru the stop sign, maybe 150-200 feet, barely slowed down. Lucky there was no cross traffic.

Drove it home, parked it in the garage, called Tire Rack and ordered a set of snow tires mounted on wheels, the car did not move again until the new wheels and tires were on.

My advice, don't do it!!!

Last year when I had all wheel drive and all season tires, I came upon a bridge where there were a pile up. I slowly crawl into the bridge at like 2-5 mph (the speedo shows 0) and suddenly I realized the pileup was due to the fact that the bridge, and where I am driving, was iced over. I hit the brake and then just slid for about 30-40 feet and right before I came to a stop I went side ways.

On a hill, you are going to slide from top to bottom and you will only stop if you hit something or the ground flattens out.

Yikes. Thanks guys...especially for the creative replies and suggestions on driving technique. Tomorrow morning, If it still looks like a "Porsche Luge" disaster, I'll wait until I have more sand.

I wish I had winter tires! @#$@# . Drats!!!

I've had the misfortune of experiencing that with an S4 with summer tires. The car was like a sled on the ice with the tires completly frozen up, they were like plastic... I had gotten that S4 late in the winter and I assumed it wouldn't snow again. But it DID only 3-4cms... exactly like u said, getting going no problem with AWD, steering and braking :) that was whole different story.

You might need a camera crew to get the whole experience on film. One shot needs to be a close up of the drivers face. Audio would be nice too. Have a clean pair of skivvies handy.
Good Luck and may the Force Be with You!!

Update? Video?

I made a similar attempt at driving my car down a steep sloped driveway a few years back. But it was mainly due to ignorance when I moved from L.A. to Chicago.

BTW, If you get the car down the slope successfully, do you plan on getting it back up without the winter tires?

Is this a trick question ? They say there is no such thing as a dumb question. Well, they obviously hadn't heard this one yet... hilarioushilarioushilarious

So...no video, calls to AAA, or soiled drawers...but here is what happened:

Going down, while facing forward - the back end swung sideways during feather breaking, and I skidded down to the (bone dry) street. (If the street was iced,too..I woudn't have tried this). I got it back up with some extra effort.

For giggles, I turned the car around and went down backwards.... having all the weight in front, helped keep a straighter line (much like those nerf-dart football things).

Verdict: It hanlded like a bull on ice skates in both directions. Dadio might be right. In preparation for winter...

I'm getting 18" snows.
I'm having extra sand delivered.
The flat bed # will be programmed into my phone.
.and I'll need to convince my wife to get her a Cayanne with a winch (my favorite suggestion).

Hey - Are you knocking the sillycrosse events? Popping ballons while at 10mph in reverse is an extremely valuable skill!!! You never know when you'll need to drive away from terrorists dressed as clowns who are also driving in reverse.

Actually, I have an opposite issue- I currently have a long steep grade of an icy driveway. But my house is lower than the street. I've been doing it in reverse 365/2 x year for a number of years.

A buddy of mine thought it would be fun to include something like this in a winter autocross event. (big terrain differences, departure angles, backward...and pop ballons without running over cones.) I did a Jeep off-road event years ago... but it was in the spring mud. (backwards, mud, cones, horse flies,...was huge fun... maybe this should be included in a Cayenne event. Not enough Porsche drivers get their cars dirty enough.:p)

There is something true about the weight distribution (The nerf rocket has a little to do with weight...but more to do with aerodynamics). "Forward only" is neither the best nor only solution. When in reverse on my slope, I just work the clutch and dont' jam on the breaks...or I'll end up sliding into my living room. The back-end wieght over the axle definitely assists. (Once a week, I move a 100gal garbage can w/ 2 axles up and down my driveway - The same principle applies to our $100,000 cars.)

Actually, I'm not. It's another form of play with our cars, and such activities are how we learn "what happens if I do this?" in a low-risk environment. Skills I learned forty years ago in such events still come back to help now and then, because they teach our subconscious what to expect in unusual maneuvers. You can't do high-speed problem solving in critical situations if you're preoccupied with absorbing new sensations.

I've been in at least five life-critical emergencies in cars and planes that come to mind off the top of my head. In each case, the training I had done in vehicle-familiarization ahead of time saved our lives.

Besides, they're fun.:)

P.S. Uh... you only manage ten miles per hour in reverse for the balloon breaking? Tsk, tsk.

I agree..was just kidding about the autocross stuff. If you can master those skills, then certainly better understand both C&D capabilities.


BTW - Care to list the 'critical' car scenarios you mentioned and how your learnings enabled you to avoid disaster? Maybe post a new thread, c'est nes pa? This might have high value for new drivers.

When I was younger I could probably have popped serpentine ballons in revese at 20mph...but I doubt I can still do it at that speed.


Originally Posted by RyanJ http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/viewpost.gif
Hey - Are you knocking the sillycrosse events? Popping ballons while at 10mph in reverse is an extremely valuable skill!!! You never know when you'll need to drive away from terrorists dressed as clowns who are also driving in reverse.
Actually, I'm not. It's another form of play with our cars, and such activities are how we learn "what happens if I do this?" in a low-risk environment. Skills I learned forty years ago in such events still come back to help now and then, because they teach our subconscious what to expect in unusual maneuvers. You can't do high-speed problem solving in critical situations if you're preoccupied with absorbing new sensations.

I've been in at least five life-critical emergencies in cars and planes that come to mind off the top of my head. In each case, the training I had done in vehicle-familiarization ahead of time saved our lives.

Besides, they're fun.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...lies/smile.gif

P.S. Uh... you only manage ten miles per hour in reverse for the balloon breaking? Tsk, tsk.

I'm not a winter driver, but I've been told that you can lower the tire pressure enough to get some grip on ice/snow with summer tires..????

Heh heh. Let me just be clear here. You're asking an old man if he'd like to tell war stories about his favorite cars in battle?

Ben sûr, mon ami.

How did we get on this tangent, again? ....

I'm not embarrassed to talk about my near misses / battle scars. 100% of mine can all be attributed to one reason: Driver error. I even repeated a few. (Doh!).

My track game is very similar to my golf game. I tend to shoot better scores when I leave my woods in the bag.

Uh... you asked me to?

Actually I thought you wanted to hear about the times that skills I learned on track and in autocrosses (and even sillycrosses) saved our lives? The driver errors are a lot funnier and decidely more numerous of course, but thanks to race training they've never done any real harm.

I think the autocross/DE training and how it helped save your butt a few times is a really good thread. It has high value....and it might encourage a few other drivers out there to learn to mitigate some of the risks in performance driving.

(Many of the new drivers unknowingly rely on the electronic technogadetry which keeps the rear end of the car behind the driver).

I wish I picked up those skills earlier in life. It probably would have saved me some heart-ache!

I'll start a thread on "how autocrosse skills saved my butt...and...near misses"

-RJ