I thought he referred to a 335 with Blizzaks.

 

Yep, plus there is a big difference between a $30k 335 and a $70k M3... I suspect the 2WD Porsche will be a better snow car than the M3 - rear engine rear drive is a good combo for the snow. I drove mine with all seasons and it was really fine, although I didn't get into real snow.

 

I IMPLORE you to hold that word (torque converter) until you test drive the C63. It is not anything like a conventional slushbox auto. Upshifts hooks up 'nearly' as hard and as fast as double-clutch electro-manual and will also rev-match on downshifts. Next choice to my 997.2 would have been the C63 but I didn't need a four-door sedan.

As for depreciation, I don't know what the situation is like across the Pacific, but I do remind you that the MB has far more gear standard than the M3. If you add all the options on the M3 the final price will a far chunk higher than the C63.

If the C63 just isn't your cup of tea, that's fine... Don't dismiss it just because it has a 'torque converter'; you'll be doing yourself a disservice! Good luck with your choice anyway.

Howie

 

I test drove a 997.1, 997.2 and an '09 M3. All are fantastic pieces of engineering. I would not be unhappy with any of them. I only have two observations to offer.

#1. The M3 felt very disconnected from the driver. I actually felt more like I was playing a video game instead of actually driving a car connected to the road.

#2. I felt no appreciable difference between the 997.1 and 997.2. There are a ton of improvements to the 997.2 engine. Few moving parts and less moving mass both of which contribute to longevity and directly result in greater gas mileage (Better fuel economy). And yes, DFI does result in 30 more bhp. But I didn't feel any difference with both cars in Sport Chrono mode. And . . . I liked the sound of the 997.1 better.

* I'm sorry Larry. I know that your knowledge is very respected here and I do trust your knowledge and experience. However, I disagree with you in this case.

There is 30 bhp and 15 ft-lbs or torque difference. When someone does a "bolt-on" mod that adds similar power, very rarely does anyone admit to feeling a difference in the "butt-dyno." Your statement that alludes to a much bigger difference than 30bhp and 15 ft-lbs of torque. The 0-60 times by any of the magazines don't support that.


I chose the 997.1 because it made more sense for me economically, but was already prepared to buy a 997.2 C2S - in fact spoke to the dealership and went to the dearlership for a 997.2.

 

I test-drove an M3.

It felt like a big monster engine in a heavy, numb chassis. Not bad, nice sound when you rev it.

Then I test drove a 135.

Oh yeah! Much better, it feels faster (even if it isn't), way more nimble, much more responsive. The torque from the turbo is incredible, but there's also a bit of nasty lag, and those run flat tires are absurd. If I bought a BMW it would be a 135.

Then I test drove a Cayman.

Wow! What an incredible difference even over the 135. So sharp, responsive, I can feel everything about the road, the car does exactly what I tell it to all the time, I was flicking the tail on the test drive it was just so easy to control.

Then I test drove a 997.

And it was the one.

 

Let me address each point . I have owned three 997S cars . An 05 launch car , an 07 F77 car. and my 09 Fvd equipped car . The modded cars did begin as stock so my reference is based on stock performance.

1) The DCT M3 may feel a bit more "disconnected" or 'like a computer game" --I do not know. Mine is a manual . It is is completely different type of drive than a 997S . I would call it practical for street use. It's comfortable, fast, handles well , fits in parking spaces with ease (no flared fenders) , and offers free maintenance and low wear . It offers a lot of decent performance with daily driving .

It's not "connected" the same as a 997S . But I would not call it "disconnected" . It's just different.

2) Most of the differences discussed with the 997.2 involve the PDK or the slight Hp bump . That is not the "kick" that i am referring to.

Almost instantly I noticed that the Dfi engine had an immediate response . I even see it in the new Turbo . There's that split second response that the older car does not have. In fact many PDK 997.2 owners even compare it to the 997.1 Gt3 because of all the changes combined.

The 997.1 is a great car and economically it's a coin toss as to which offers the better value . Much would depend on when one bought either the 997.2 vs the 997.1 because the used market doesn't always price in line with the new market or visa versa . Good deals apply to BOTH -- being in the right spot at the right time can make one deal beat another on any given day .

 

Having driven many of the above and having made a 997.2 purchase in the recent past, I can substantiate several of the claims in this thread:

1. The 'immediacy' of the 997.2 and DFI + PDK. I didn't expect to like PDK. Guess what I wound up buying? Yep, PDK.

2. The entertaining nature of the C63. Seriously, if I *needed* four doors this would be it. Buy it lightly used secondhand and let someone else eat the depreciation hit, because everyone's right, they do depreciate like a rock, especially in that first year. Don't let your allergy to torque converters get in the way - they *really* got the whole package right. The shifts are blipped and rev-matched to perfection. Go drive one if you've got an M3 in your head. Really. You owe it to yourself to check it out.

3. The well-mannered nature of the M3. On all scales of practicality, it should probably get the nod, and I would echo the sentiment that BMW would probably find a way to help you out of your 335 lease if you were absolutely keen on an M3. I would personally feel that it and a 335 in the garage would be a bit redundant, despite the differences in power delivery.

Best of luck with your decision!

MB

 

Wow, lots of great responses and varied opinions, which is great. If there was just "one answer" it'd be in a book somewhere and we wouldn't need places like this to shoot the breeze.

Someone commented on car ADHD and I have the same problem. Haven't kept anything longer than 2 years in the past decade: '02 E46 M3, ('04 YZF for a year ), '05 MINI Cooper S, '03 C2, '07 C2S, '09 C63. I really liked the E46, but didn't realize what I was missing until the 996 - and the 997 what that much better again.

When the second child arrived, I figured I would go back to the M3 since I liked the E46 and was happy to see sedans return with the E90 platform. Boy was I disappointed. I drove a manual and as someone said, it felt completely disconnected. Heavy, awkward, BIG, slow clutch take in, dreadful e-gas - I couldn't believe it.

Drove the RS4 and really liked it. Figured I was out shopping so I would take the C63 for a spin, but fully expected to come back and negotiate an Audi. What a surprise - the C63 is a HOOT! Its exhaust > all, short of a $200k Italian. The BMW, Audi, and Porsche exhaust notes are just embarrassing in comparison. Instant power at your fingertips, but it needs to shave 500 lbs and add 1-2 inches of wheel width in the rear. Electronics were much better than my 997.1, but a little below the 997.2.

I've been to the AMG Driving Academy and the limits of the heavy AMG's are surprisingly high - high enough to embarrass a number of wannabe racers in other, lighter, competitors who think its all about the car. That being said, I miss the road feel of the 911. I miss the smaller size (and it feels smaller than it is - its feels Miata nimble in most cases). I like 3100 lbs vs. 4000 lbs (or even 3500 in the M3).

And like what I understand from F-car owners, there is just something unique about the Porsche - I can't put my finger on it, but none of the other German marques have it. So...I'm shopping a 911 again. I think we can make the cramped quarters work since my daily daycare commute is 2 miles one way, and any real family driving will be in the Odyssey.


The real question is...can I make a GT3 work, both financially and as a daily driver, or do I stick with the more sane choice of the C2S.

 

Either way, it's hard to go wrong. How bad are the roads you drive on every day?

MB

 

Local side roads in middle-to-upper-class suburbs, so they are in good shape. GA roads, in general, are pretty good and I don't ever drive downtown.

 

Apples and Oranges.....

 

-shrugs- Then I guess it's down to creature comforts and propensity for track time.

Either way, you win.

MB

 

Wow, I never expected the amount of responses and advice that has been provided. Thank you all. I am considering some options - still waiting on the trade number for the 997 and have also started to explore the option of swapping the 335 (non-AWD, BTW) for an M3. I'm not sure that my wife will go for that one, though. I am going to see if I can spend a little more time behind the wheel with the M3 to get a better feel for the car and what it has to offer. To date, I have been limited to two short test drives with the DCT. Will keep you posted.

 

I enjoy these threads... I can smell the enthusiasm through my wireless connection.

... Makes me want to start searching harder for my next car.

 

I used to have an E46 M3, no mods. According to my buttdyno, the 997.1S doesn't pull any harder than the M from deadstop or rolling start. As for the E92 M, I did drive it (4-door DCT) and the torque was insane, I can def feel it pull harder than the 997.1S.

I dunno about the "connected/disconnected" feel others are referring to, I feel connected to all of them when driving , except I'm still getting used to the light front end on the 997 during hard acceleration .