997 Has 20K Miles And Porsche Says I Need A New Engine??
#16
how is it they are able to diagnose this as a failed crankshaft ???
the symptoms you are describing relative to the cars behavior suggest this is a simple failed water pump assembly and a $1,000 repair.
something isn't right here.
the symptoms you are describing relative to the cars behavior suggest this is a simple failed water pump assembly and a $1,000 repair.
something isn't right here.
#18
I hope this works out for you.
You probably won't get a "new" engine. You could likely get a "remanufactured" engine. Ether way, it will come with the same warranty. I think it's 24 months on Porsche parts. The reason replacing the engine takes longer than just pulling one one out and plugging one in is that many items will be reused from the old engine and have to be moved over to the new engine (harnesses, exhausts, possibly intake plenum etc.),
You probably won't get a "new" engine. You could likely get a "remanufactured" engine. Ether way, it will come with the same warranty. I think it's 24 months on Porsche parts. The reason replacing the engine takes longer than just pulling one one out and plugging one in is that many items will be reused from the old engine and have to be moved over to the new engine (harnesses, exhausts, possibly intake plenum etc.),
#22
I talked to my friend who was driving the car and he told me that it was a Low Battery Warning message NOT a Low Oil Pressure light that came on initially. He then said we drove about a mile and the Overheating Message came on at which point we pulled over immediately.
So we were not driving on low oil, which gives me some ease.
So we were not driving on low oil, which gives me some ease.
As for the rest... well, first may I offer an engineer's perspective? The crankshaft is what the engine is built around. The crankshaft turns the driveshaft which turns the axles which turn the wheels. Everything else in the engine is put there for the crankshaft.
As a result, a crankshaft that fails usually takes other parts of the engine down with it. Not necessarily, but it's the safe bet. I was ready to close the deal on a light aircraft when analysis of the logs showed the engine had been replaced with one from a cropduster that augered in and wrote off the airframe. (And the pilot, but I wasn't buying his organs, just his engine.) The crankshaft of an aircraft is even more obvious. It's the part bolted to that propeller spinning around. Usually with no intervening parts, so what the logs really described was a crankshaft trying to drill a hole to the center of the earth with a pilot attached. No deal. We walked away. You also should walk away from that bag of parts that used to be your engine.
What I'm saying is the bit about it being as expensive to repair the crankshaft as to replace the engine is quite plausible. The last time I repaired a crankshaft, it was in an MG and that was taken from an old cast-iron truck or tractor engine or something equally exciting from around WWII that produced about sixty horsepower. I don't think a crankshaft in a modern Porsche engine can be repaired. Replaced, maybe, but repaired seems unlikely.
You definitely want a new engine if the cost is within five thousand of the cost of the repair estimate. I'd say that much even without considering any effect on eventual resale value. For me personally -- speaking as an engineer -- I'd say that a new engine is indicated if the repair even reaches half the cost of a replacement.
Now for the other news. The Porsche guy just called and here's what he said:
They are talking to the regional Field Tech Manager to see what Porsche's stance is on this. It's his call as to what they will replace and how much (if any) percentage Porsche will pay to fix the issue.[...]
Worst case scenario: Porsche doesn't help out at all and I pay 10K for a new engine and 3K for labor. I won't be too happy if this is what happens.
Best case scenario: I get a new engine for 5K or less (combination of Porsche paying for part of the new engine and the selling of the current engine core). If this happens I'll definitely consider another Porsche in my future.
They are talking to the regional Field Tech Manager to see what Porsche's stance is on this. It's his call as to what they will replace and how much (if any) percentage Porsche will pay to fix the issue.[...]
Worst case scenario: Porsche doesn't help out at all and I pay 10K for a new engine and 3K for labor. I won't be too happy if this is what happens.
Best case scenario: I get a new engine for 5K or less (combination of Porsche paying for part of the new engine and the selling of the current engine core). If this happens I'll definitely consider another Porsche in my future.
To encourage that, I suggest you put in that call to Porsche yourself. Tell them you know the dealer is going up his chain, but you want to know that Porsche Corporation North America is examining this case as well. Shocked and disappointed, brand with amazing reputation, car always treated like a treasure, and so forth. All that and more. Emote. Tell it sincerely but fully. This really isn't impossible for any car make, speaking technically, but it really isn't acceptable for certain cars. Porsche is one of those that shouldn't accept it and I'll bet they don't. This situation is why manufacturers have a discretionary fund for out-of-warranty repairs. Ask them right and they'll dip into it for you.
Gary
#23
I would like to get a second opinion, but the next closest Porsche dealership to me is 100+ miles away, and it sounds like the guy has already opened up a case with Porsche. I'm not sure, but I would imagine that even if I towed the car to another dealership they would probably find the same case and tell me the same thing. However, if I could find a past Porsche mechanic in Chattanooga, I would pay for their opinion.
Thanks for your advice. The guy on the phone sounded optimistic that Porsche would cover a portion of the costs, we just don't know how much. He said they should find out today and he will give me a call and let me know.
I'm going to follow your advice and after he calls with what Porsche will do I'll call Porsche myself and will explain the situation from the standpoint of my un-modified engine with 20K miles and a clean service record failed, which is unacceptable. I doubt (if they want my loyalty) they will disagree with that. Then I'll explain how my Porsche dealer has been helping me out the best they can, but the most they could get their regional manager to cover is X% of the cost. I'll then mention how an engine failure in any vehicle with a clean record and low miles is completely unacceptable especially in a Porsche. And that I'm shocked and disappointed that a manufacturer with an amazing reputation is only going to cover X% of the cost in this situation. I'll then try and see if they will be willing to cover more cost of the replacement engine.
I'm now hoping that if Porsche doesn't cover the entire cost of the engine (minus the labor) they will at least cover a generous portion of it. Earlier when I thought the first warning light was a low oil light, I was concerned that driving a mile before pulling over may have contributed to the damage; but now that my friend (who was driving) confirmed it was actually a low battery warning, I'm more convinced that this nightmare was caused by a faulty crank installed when the car was built.
Thanks again everyone for your help, I'll keep you updated.
I think you're shooting too low. If you have an unmodified engine that failed at 20,000 miles, and a clean set of maintenance records, then you're in the range that Porsche will seriously consider footing the whole bill. As a negotiating posture, I'd suggest asking for that. Period. Then if you must, settle for their providing the replacement engine and you pay for the labor cost to install it.
To encourage that, I suggest you put in that call to Porsche yourself. Tell them you know the dealer is going up his chain, but you want to know that Porsche Corporation North America is examining this case as well. Shocked and disappointed, brand with amazing reputation, car always treated like a treasure, and so forth. All that and more. Emote. Tell it sincerely but fully. This really isn't impossible for any car make, speaking technically, but it really isn't acceptable for certain cars. Porsche is one of those that shouldn't accept it and I'll bet they don't. This situation is why manufacturers have a discretionary fund for out-of-warranty repairs. Ask them right and they'll dip into it for you.
Gary
To encourage that, I suggest you put in that call to Porsche yourself. Tell them you know the dealer is going up his chain, but you want to know that Porsche Corporation North America is examining this case as well. Shocked and disappointed, brand with amazing reputation, car always treated like a treasure, and so forth. All that and more. Emote. Tell it sincerely but fully. This really isn't impossible for any car make, speaking technically, but it really isn't acceptable for certain cars. Porsche is one of those that shouldn't accept it and I'll bet they don't. This situation is why manufacturers have a discretionary fund for out-of-warranty repairs. Ask them right and they'll dip into it for you.
Gary
I'm going to follow your advice and after he calls with what Porsche will do I'll call Porsche myself and will explain the situation from the standpoint of my un-modified engine with 20K miles and a clean service record failed, which is unacceptable. I doubt (if they want my loyalty) they will disagree with that. Then I'll explain how my Porsche dealer has been helping me out the best they can, but the most they could get their regional manager to cover is X% of the cost. I'll then mention how an engine failure in any vehicle with a clean record and low miles is completely unacceptable especially in a Porsche. And that I'm shocked and disappointed that a manufacturer with an amazing reputation is only going to cover X% of the cost in this situation. I'll then try and see if they will be willing to cover more cost of the replacement engine.
I'm now hoping that if Porsche doesn't cover the entire cost of the engine (minus the labor) they will at least cover a generous portion of it. Earlier when I thought the first warning light was a low oil light, I was concerned that driving a mile before pulling over may have contributed to the damage; but now that my friend (who was driving) confirmed it was actually a low battery warning, I'm more convinced that this nightmare was caused by a faulty crank installed when the car was built.
Thanks again everyone for your help, I'll keep you updated.
#25
Ok, I just came from the Porsche dealership and I think they are trying to screw me over.
Here's what happened:
Part 1)
They told me they pulled the RPM records and the car frequently exceeded the 7,000 redline so they cannot pay anything to fix the engine and that it was my fault. They explained that the only way you can exceed the 7,000 RPM is if you downshift and force the car to do that. The car will not allow you to accelerate past 7K RPM and if you try the car will cut the fuel off automatically to prevent this from happening.
But here's the thing, I never learned how to downshift (yeah I know I'm a granny driver) so I have never downshifted to slow the car down. They said I was exceeding 9,500 RPM for .5 second, 8,500 RPM for 1.3 seconds, and 7,500 RPM for 4 seconds. I know a large majority of you will not believe me when I say I don't drive my car at a high RPM, but hopefully me posting this will help convince you that I'm telling the truth. After all, if i drove the crap out of my car I probably wouldn't have created a topic asking why my car messed up or be telling you what they said.
I know I've mentioned that I let my friend drive the car sometimes (I was his passenger every time but once), but he moved to Hawaii for a year and some of these High RPM values were from when he was out of town and no one else has ever driven the car.
So I told them their report was not accurate because I did not drive my car like that. Their response was they just looked at me and smiled like I was telling them a joke. I then told them that I wanted them to test the accuracy of the RPM reporting mechanism within the car and they told me that "yeah it is possible it could be wrong, but since your engine is damaged it's pretty clear its not wrong". I then asked him if he had ever seen RPM ranges that high for this car and he said "No". He then told me he's seen track cars with 250,000 miles on them with lower ranges than this.
Part 2)
Then they got into the cost of fixing everything. They told me they could "Patch" the crank pulley for $1,333. Seriously...patch the crank, a vital part of a car designed to go nearly 180mph...my dog would have better advice than that. Then they told me I could replace the crank and it would be $13,694, but they said that if they cracked open the engine and there was anything else wrong with the engine that the price would go up to fix the other issues. Finally, they told me I can replace the engine. They said it this would cost $20,374 and that includes selling back the old engine core. Earlier this week he told me they replaced an engine for a Cayanne Turbo for $15,000 and the engine replacement for my car would be cheaper since it was less complex and at that time he estimated it would be about 13-14K to replace the engine. Apparently the estimated increased $7,000.
Part 3)
He showed me the engine in the car and he was like "if you look there you can see where the crank wheel was wobbling around" and there was like maybe a one inch scratch where the wheel attaches to the crank. I then asked if the car could turn on and he said "Yeah it can turn on and runs, but the battery is weak".
So what do you guys think. Do you think they are trying to rip me off or do you think I actually managed to ruin my car unknowingly driving to the Olive garden once a month and I'm just ignorant that Porsche is trying to help me?
I talked to my friend who also drove the car and we were both dumbfounded at this. We are not the type of people who drive the crap out of a $70K car and ruin it within 10,000 miles. His stepfather was a writer for popular car magazines and knows two authorized German master mechanics, so I'm going to see if we can get their input on this.
Here's what happened:
Part 1)
They told me they pulled the RPM records and the car frequently exceeded the 7,000 redline so they cannot pay anything to fix the engine and that it was my fault. They explained that the only way you can exceed the 7,000 RPM is if you downshift and force the car to do that. The car will not allow you to accelerate past 7K RPM and if you try the car will cut the fuel off automatically to prevent this from happening.
But here's the thing, I never learned how to downshift (yeah I know I'm a granny driver) so I have never downshifted to slow the car down. They said I was exceeding 9,500 RPM for .5 second, 8,500 RPM for 1.3 seconds, and 7,500 RPM for 4 seconds. I know a large majority of you will not believe me when I say I don't drive my car at a high RPM, but hopefully me posting this will help convince you that I'm telling the truth. After all, if i drove the crap out of my car I probably wouldn't have created a topic asking why my car messed up or be telling you what they said.
I know I've mentioned that I let my friend drive the car sometimes (I was his passenger every time but once), but he moved to Hawaii for a year and some of these High RPM values were from when he was out of town and no one else has ever driven the car.
So I told them their report was not accurate because I did not drive my car like that. Their response was they just looked at me and smiled like I was telling them a joke. I then told them that I wanted them to test the accuracy of the RPM reporting mechanism within the car and they told me that "yeah it is possible it could be wrong, but since your engine is damaged it's pretty clear its not wrong". I then asked him if he had ever seen RPM ranges that high for this car and he said "No". He then told me he's seen track cars with 250,000 miles on them with lower ranges than this.
Part 2)
Then they got into the cost of fixing everything. They told me they could "Patch" the crank pulley for $1,333. Seriously...patch the crank, a vital part of a car designed to go nearly 180mph...my dog would have better advice than that. Then they told me I could replace the crank and it would be $13,694, but they said that if they cracked open the engine and there was anything else wrong with the engine that the price would go up to fix the other issues. Finally, they told me I can replace the engine. They said it this would cost $20,374 and that includes selling back the old engine core. Earlier this week he told me they replaced an engine for a Cayanne Turbo for $15,000 and the engine replacement for my car would be cheaper since it was less complex and at that time he estimated it would be about 13-14K to replace the engine. Apparently the estimated increased $7,000.
Part 3)
He showed me the engine in the car and he was like "if you look there you can see where the crank wheel was wobbling around" and there was like maybe a one inch scratch where the wheel attaches to the crank. I then asked if the car could turn on and he said "Yeah it can turn on and runs, but the battery is weak".
So what do you guys think. Do you think they are trying to rip me off or do you think I actually managed to ruin my car unknowingly driving to the Olive garden once a month and I'm just ignorant that Porsche is trying to help me?
I talked to my friend who also drove the car and we were both dumbfounded at this. We are not the type of people who drive the crap out of a $70K car and ruin it within 10,000 miles. His stepfather was a writer for popular car magazines and knows two authorized German master mechanics, so I'm going to see if we can get their input on this.
#27
He didn't show me the actual report...instead he showed me pictures he took of the report on his phone. But from what he showed me, they were within the time period that I owned the vehicle. The furthest one back he showed me was 10 hours. But in reality that was like 14 months ago. I probably drive the car 6-8 hours a year. I wasn't joking when I said I only drove to eat out, go to church, see family.
#29
+1....and ask for a DME scan. Compare the results with what Porsche gave you.
Or, take your car to another Porsche dealer. I would also call the Porsche dealer that you purchased the car from and ask for a copy of the DME scan. If your car was CPO'd then they have to do a DME scan --- this will show the over-revs that were on the car when you purchased it. Porsche won't CPO a car with that amount of over-revs.
Or, take your car to another Porsche dealer. I would also call the Porsche dealer that you purchased the car from and ask for a copy of the DME scan. If your car was CPO'd then they have to do a DME scan --- this will show the over-revs that were on the car when you purchased it. Porsche won't CPO a car with that amount of over-revs.
#30
I just wrote a massive post (maybe the longest I have ever written and when I went to submit it I lost it all and it didnt post.)
In short reason the quotes were different would lead you to beleave that something is going on and that dealer cannot be trusted. I would avoid getting the work done with this dealer and think about getting another opinion. Honestly you are better off spending the money to have it looked at somewhere else. It does not take a certified porsche specialist to tell you if the crank is loose, then you will know forsure that this dealer is telling you stories.
To me I think the pully coming loose was the reason the belt came off and caused over heating.This is the coolent your seeing in the back of the engine forsure..these are things people have already said.
I would also say that its very hard for people on the forum to give you any advice on the engine as we dont have a way to see it and snoop around.
If the waterpump stopped pumping coolent thru the engine and it was unable to maintain a normal opperation tempature then it would overheat (this is a given)
honestly you really need another opinion. i wish I could take a look so this wasnt all just a stab in the dark. I wish I could help out.
In short reason the quotes were different would lead you to beleave that something is going on and that dealer cannot be trusted. I would avoid getting the work done with this dealer and think about getting another opinion. Honestly you are better off spending the money to have it looked at somewhere else. It does not take a certified porsche specialist to tell you if the crank is loose, then you will know forsure that this dealer is telling you stories.
To me I think the pully coming loose was the reason the belt came off and caused over heating.This is the coolent your seeing in the back of the engine forsure..these are things people have already said.
I would also say that its very hard for people on the forum to give you any advice on the engine as we dont have a way to see it and snoop around.
If the waterpump stopped pumping coolent thru the engine and it was unable to maintain a normal opperation tempature then it would overheat (this is a given)
honestly you really need another opinion. i wish I could take a look so this wasnt all just a stab in the dark. I wish I could help out.
Last edited by lopro; 01-06-2012 at 06:03 PM.