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Vantage Owner's Poll -- Supercharging
Vantage owners,
One aspect of the AMV8 that it criticized by test drivers and owners alike is the lack of low-end power, particularly for the 4.3L version. Fortunately, at least two performance parts suppliers have developed supercharging kits to address the issue. Unfortunately, those suppliers have priced the kits in the $25k-$30k range, which most view as too steep to be seriously considered. In view of the high price of the kits, it appears as though there have not been many buyers of these kits. This makes me wonder whether the suppliers would consider dropping the price of their kits if doing so would result in sales they would otherwise not make. The example I used in another post was that it would be better for them to sell 5 kits at $12k each than 1 kit at $30k. Or, it would be just as good to sell 5 kits at $12k each as it would to sell 2 at $30k. I am interested in seeing how many of you Vantage owners would likely purchase a kit if the price were under $15k. It appears that such a price point would generate serious buyers, and still provide significant profit margin for the suppliers given that the R&D has already been performed and the actual parts probably costs much less than that. If we can get a good-sized group of committed buyers, maybe we could get a more reasonable price. So, Vantage owners, please respond and let us know: Would you seriously consider buying an SC kit in the $10k-$15k range? To ensure that we get good data, please only reply with a "yes" if you are a current Vantage owner and are serious about buying/installing the kit, meaning you have the means and would actually plunk down the cash assuming the price and logistics worked out. Thanks! |
Well, it looks like we may have gotten all the responses we're going to get on this one. Thank you to all who participated. If you haven't voted and would like to add to the "yes" count, please feel free to do so (again, serious buyers only).
As for the results, I think nine yeses is pretty good! Going on the $10k-$15k premise, that would be $90k to $135k in sales. For those of you who responded "yes," I would like to talk to you about possibly working together as a group in hopes of making this hypothetical a reality. If that is something that you might be interested in, please PM me. I would PM each of you but I can't see who responded with what answer. Thanks! |
When I get enough post I'll PM you.
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I responded yes.
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Hi everyone. I can't see the results of the poll (I didn't vote in it as I didn't want to skew the results at all) but if I'm reading correctly there were 9 people who responded as a 'Yes'.
I wanted to respond to this because as most of you probably know, RSC has been developing a Supercharger for some time now, and we haven't really pushed it for a couple of reasons. We started developing this around this time last year, with 2 other partners in the project, and ended up with a product which was 95% completed (as per some of my previous posts.) Unfortunately, one of the partners pulled out of the project, which left us in a position where we needed to reinvest in the project as well as starting from scratch with a couple of the components. Rather than throwing money at it at the time, and wading in we took a slightly more measured approach, invested the $$$ at the right time, and we are now 99% of the way there. The point at which we had arrived previously was that we had package which functioned extremely well from a mechanical point of view, made excellent HP and even more impressive torque. The remaining 5% was down to ECU mapping and getting effective communication between our secondary ECU and the OE ECU. As some of you may be aware, the AM ECUs are not anywhere near as easy as the Bosch or Siemens ECUs to deal with and this required a significant investment of time and $$$ to get to the point we are at now (this is also another one of the reasons why BMW etc. chargers are available for much less.) So we are currently in a position where we have upped the size of the injectors from last year, eliminated all warning lights, and have the system running very well. I expect to have a 100 percent complete and market-ready product available in 4 weeks time. Final power runs will be available at that time, but our previous runs on last year's mapping and on smaller injectors was running 6psi of boost and made 521BHP on one dyno, and 536BHP on a second one. We achieved 320ft/lbs of torque at 2500rpm, and 420ft/lbs from 3500rpm-redline. Our goal with this was to create a charger that produced lots of torque low down and in the midrange instead of focusing on top end. I can't see it making any less power than we made on the previous mapping this time around, so I would expect figures to be, at the very least, the same as quoted above, if not slightly better. We will also be starting out on fairly conservative settings, and will probably release updated mapping for those who want it to increase power later on down the line. When I saw this thread, I thought the timing was probably about right and we'd really like to get this product out there. This isn't something we see as a high margin product, despite some of the opinion/sentiment that ourselves and ESX are pricing things in a predatory fashion because AMs are more expensive than Hondas. I'm quite happy to tell you that the actual literal cost of each unit, which includes 100 percent of the components, currently falls in the very upper range of the $10-15,000 range which was mentioned. That doesn't include any factoring in of developent, both in terms of actual costs incurred, or the huge amount of time that has gone into the R&D. That is, pure and simple, the amount that it costs us to put the physical components of the package in a box, ready to ship. If we sold you a charger for $14,000, it would cost us money. Now, I'm not trying to sell anyone a sob story, this is business and we (with no regrets) chose to jump in at the deep end on this project. The bottom line is that there are 2 companies (RSC and our engineering partner) who have invested a lot into this project. We went for a high-quality OE type of fit, and decided to do the job right, instead of cheap. We're not looking to get rich off it - to be honest, we'll probably never recoup a reasonable return on the money/time, but we hope that it will serve as a means for us to continue serving the AM community and thereby sell more of all our other products. So the bottom line is this: I have 2 customers independent of this poll who have committed to buy. We have all discussed this and feel that a group buy is a great opportunity for both us, and for customers who are early adopters to get a mutually beneficial deal. What we would like to do is offer this group buy if we can achieve an additional 8 commitments at a price of $18,995.00 I know that might sound steep or whatever to some of you, but it's a pretty skinny price, and a lot more time and money invested than I think people realise. Let me know what you think guys & gals. I'd really like to make this happen - beyond all the business stuff, the AMV8 is my favourite car by a long shot and I'd love to see some RSC SC cars eating up the competition. |
Originally Posted by Stuart@RSC
(Post 2901954)
Hi everyone. I can't see the results of the poll (I didn't vote in it as I didn't want to skew the results at all) but if I'm reading correctly there were 9 people who responded as a 'Yes'.
I wanted to respond to this because as most of you probably know, RSC has been developing a Supercharger for some time now, and we haven't really pushed it for a couple of reasons. We started developing this around this time last year, with 2 other partners in the project, and ended up with a product which was 95% completed (as per some of my previous posts.) Unfortunately, one of the partners pulled out of the project, which left us in a position where we needed to reinvest in the project as well as starting from scratch with a couple of the components. Rather than throwing money at it at the time, and wading in we took a slightly more measured approach, invested the $$$ at the right time, and we are now 99% of the way there. The point at which we had arrived previously was that we had package which functioned extremely well from a mechanical point of view, made excellent HP and even more impressive torque. The remaining 5% was down to ECU mapping and getting effective communication between our secondary ECU and the OE ECU. As some of you may be aware, the AM ECUs are not anywhere near as easy as the Bosch or Siemens ECUs to deal with and this required a significant investment of time and $$$ to get to the point we are at now (this is also another one of the reasons why BMW etc. chargers are available for much less.) So we are currently in a position where we have upped the size of the injectors from last year, eliminated all warning lights, and have the system running very well. I expect to have a 100 percent complete and market-ready product available in 4 weeks time. Final power runs will be available at that time, but our previous runs on last year's mapping and on smaller injectors was running 6psi of boost and made 521BHP on one dyno, and 536BHP on a second one. We achieved 320ft/lbs of torque at 2500rpm, and 420ft/lbs from 3500rpm-redline. Our goal with this was to create a charger that produced lots of torque low down and in the midrange instead of focusing on top end. I can't see it making any less power than we made on the previous mapping this time around, so I would expect figures to be, at the very least, the same as quoted above, if not slightly better. We will also be starting out on fairly conservative settings, and will probably release updated mapping for those who want it to increase power later on down the line. When I saw this thread, I thought the timing was probably about right and we'd really like to get this product out there. This isn't something we see as a high margin product, despite some of the opinion/sentiment that ourselves and ESX are pricing things in a predatory fashion because AMs are more expensive than Hondas. I'm quite happy to tell you that the actual literal cost of each unit, which includes 100 percent of the components, currently falls in the very upper range of the $10-15,000 range which was mentioned. That doesn't include any factoring in of developent, both in terms of actual costs incurred, or the huge amount of time that has gone into the R&D. That is, pure and simple, the amount that it costs us to put the physical components of the package in a box, ready to ship. If we sold you a charger for $14,000, it would cost us money. Now, I'm not trying to sell anyone a sob story, this is business and we (with no regrets) chose to jump in at the deep end on this project. The bottom line is that there are 2 companies (RSC and our engineering partner) who have invested a lot into this project. We went for a high-quality OE type of fit, and decided to do the job right, instead of cheap. We're not looking to get rich off it - to be honest, we'll probably never recoup a reasonable return on the money/time, but we hope that it will serve as a means for us to continue serving the AM community and thereby sell more of all our other products. So the bottom line is this: I have 2 customers independent of this poll who have committed to buy. We have all discussed this and feel that a group buy is a great opportunity for both us, and for customers who are early adopters to get a mutually beneficial deal. What we would like to do is offer this group buy if we can achieve an additional 8 commitments at a price of $18,995.00 I know that might sound steep or whatever to some of you, but it's a pretty skinny price, and a lot more time and money invested than I think people realise. Let me know what you think guys & gals. I'd really like to make this happen - beyond all the business stuff, the AMV8 is my favourite car by a long shot and I'd love to see some RSC SC cars eating up the competition. Thanks for the post. And thanks also for the new offer. I think everyone would agree that it is an improvement over the original sticker price. I don't want to talk out of turn as I have not spoken with all of the other "yes" respondents just yet, but my plan is to talk options with the group and get back to you hopefully soon. Cheers, Dave P.S.- For those of you "yes" respondents who have not yet contacted me, please do so soon so we can discuss this issue together as a group. Thanks. |
Oh, and it appears that we have 11 yeses now.
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Not real interested in a 20k kit without an aftercooler. I live in Florida and it is a must. Water/Alcohol injection is not the same.
My experience with SC kits is pretty extensive, and at the high end with BMW kits and projects. While I know RSC wants to make money, I really find it hard to believe the break even point is almost 20k per kit. |
Originally Posted by Racer_X
(Post 2902145)
Stuart,
Thanks for the post. And thanks also for the new offer. I think everyone would agree that it is an improvement over the original sticker price. I don't want to talk out of turn as I have not spoken with all of the other "yes" respondents just yet, but my plan is to talk options with the group and get back to you hopefully soon. Cheers, Dave P.S.- For those of you "yes" respondents who have not yet contacted me, please do so soon so we can discuss this issue together as a group. Thanks. |
Originally Posted by markesq
(Post 2902161)
Not real interested in a 20k kit without an aftercooler. I live in Florida and it is a must. Water/Alcohol injection is not the same.
My experience with SC kits is pretty extensive, and at the high end with BMW kits and projects. While I know RSC wants to make money, I really find it hard to believe the break even point is almost 20k per kit. We're not talking about a 'break even' of $20K, but the full cost of the components in the kit is (at current exchange rates to the £ as this is a Uk-based project for us) over $14,000 USD. That's before we account for any of the time or money spent so far. The components included are: • TVS Supercharger + Cover • Cast Aluminum Inlet Manifold Housing Complete Water Injection System & Reservoir • Upgraded High Flow Fuel Injectors • Crankshaft Pulley • Drive Belt • Drive Belt Tensioners and Brackets • Standalone ECU • Coil Amplifiers • Upgraded High Performance Spark Plugs • All Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, Spacers With all due respect to other manufacturers of S/C's for other vehicles, this is a whole different ballgame to bolting a Roots type charger onto the front and altering the MAF signals. We're talking about a completely original cast aluminum inlet manifold, and one with a water injection system plumbed into it. That is very expensive, as is an Eaton TVS 6th gen. charger. I appreciate that it might seem like a very high price, but I can assure you that the 'cost' that I'm telling you to produce one of these is in fact true, and not an exaggeration. We've always endeavoured to be honest and trustworthy with everyone on the forum so I hope that comes across here too. On the upside, one of the advantages is that the water injection system is extremely efficient. I understand your concern about FL and hot temperatures with no intercooler. If we were running a Roots type blower where effectively from the intake back is unaltered from the OE setup, then I would be a little concerned about cooling, but we have actually developed an entirely new intake manifold for the engine which houses the water injection system, meaning that the charge cooling is done in a much more precise way, much closer to the combustion chambers and via a much more sophisticated system than many. |
Why not go with a centri SC?
What about just remapping the fuel maps on the stock ECU? Adding up your list of non-specialized parts I get about 7k. Then add in the manifold. • TVS Supercharger + Cover--$3000 • Cast Aluminum Inlet Manifold Housing $$UNK Complete Water Injection System--$500-$750 & Reservoir--$60 • Upgraded High Flow Fuel Injectors--$450 • Crankshaft Pulley---$500 • Drive Belt---$30 • Drive Belt Tensioners and Brackets---$300 • Standalone ECU--$2500 • Coil Amplifiers • Upgraded High Performance Spark Plugs_$160 • All Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, Spacers--$100 It just seems a stretch that the same SC for a camaro is $5k-$7500. I just don't see another 13k out there. No offense, but the basis of kits are all the same regardless of the car. The difference is in the ECU programming and the specialized brackets and manifolds. I have ran a car with just the Water/Alcohol injection, and in conjunction with an aftercooler. Most W/A systems usually only comes on at WOT. If you run it any more, than you are going to go through gallons a day of fluid. So that mean you are going to have heat soak at every other throttle positions. It is a great system for drag cars, but not daily drivers. |
Originally Posted by markesq
(Post 2903307)
It just seems a stretch that the same SC for a camaro is $5k-$7500. I just don't see another 13k out there. No offense, but the basis of kits are all the same regardless of the car. The difference is in the ECU programming and the specialized brackets and manifolds.
I'm sure you don't need to be told about what quantity produced and market competition does to pricing.
Originally Posted by markesq
(Post 2903307)
I have ran a car with just the Water/Alcohol injection, and in conjunction with an aftercooler. Most W/A systems usually only comes on at WOT. If you run it any more, than you are going to go through gallons a day of fluid. So that mean you are going to have heat soak at every other throttle positions. It is a great system for drag cars, but not daily drivers.
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Thanks for your thoughts Mark, as always we appreciate candour and input. It helps us as a company to become better. You posed a few questions so I've answered them below.
Originally Posted by markesq
(Post 2903307)
Why not go with a centri SC?
In this case because we wanted to achieve an 'OE' fitment. One of the major advantages of a TVS system is that it doesn't take the time to 'spool up' that a centrifugal charger does. What about just remapping the fuel maps on the stock ECU? The AM ECUs are one of the only ECUs which we do not have full rights access to - ESX doesn't, nobody does. In addition, doing just the fuel maps is a less than complete solution and it's not really 'solving' the problem, it's sort of just getting around it. Adding up your list of non-specialized parts I get about 7k. Then add in the manifold. It costs us more than 7k without the manifold, in this case we're buying a lot of parts in small quantities, or manufactured to our specifications. It just seems a stretch that the same SC for a camaro is $5k-$7500. I just don't see another 13k out there. No offense, but the basis of kits are all the same regardless of the car. The difference is in the ECU programming and the specialized brackets and manifolds. There is a certain amount of 'economies of scale' at work. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think 30,000 Camaros were sold in the first month, we're talking about what, 4-5000 4.3L Vantages? If I could do a production run of 2-300 maybe we could get the prices down. I have ran a car with just the Water/Alcohol injection, and in conjunction with an aftercooler. Most W/A systems usually only comes on at WOT. If you run it any more, than you are going to go through gallons a day of fluid. So that mean you are going to have heat soak at every other throttle positions. It is a great system for drag cars, but not daily drivers. This W/A system is not a binary system, it is an integral function which delivers (similar to fuel injection) a precise amount of water, almost directly into the cylinder dependent upon conditions. The header tank holds 5L of water (about 5kg full) and will last 2.5-3 tanks of gas depending upon usage. I appreciate that this will put some people off, but I also think similarly, that the clean, OE look and virtually silent operation of the TVS will equally win people towards the design. I appreciate that this seems expensive to you and I understand if people choose not to buy this. I just hope that you also understand that I'm not bending the truth about the costs involved, and that this exercise is far from profiteering for us. As I said before, we have always endeavoured to be very honest and straightforward with our customers and I think (and hope) that this comes across in the happy customers we have populating this forum. If we were using only our business brains to approach this, we would have canned the project long ago, but we (and particularly myself) would really like to see this happen because once people see and feel the way this system drives I think they will agree that this is the way the cars should have left the factory. You are also correct in assuming the inlet manifold etc. is a significant expense, but it is the use of this much more advanced system which has allowed us to achieve something as refined, clean and quiet as we have. |
OK I touched base with Ali at ESX on this to see what he can do, and he sent me the response below. One thing to keep in mind is that these kits are available now. I have nothing negative to say about Stuart and RSC...they are a stand-up company from what I have seen and they make quality products. I think both kits can coexist as they both have their own advantages. I chose to go with the ESX kit because of the results I've seen and the availability and I'm extremely happy with how my car turned out. They have also had 16 cars out there with thousands of test miles to this point with no engine failures. Keep in mind that the price below is for the kit without installation.
"Hey Mark, Thanks for the info. After consideration and some number crunching this is what we can do. Currently we have built 16 ESX Super Vantages. There are at least 4 on the East Coast currently. As you can see with your own personal Super Vantage, they can easily make 500+ wheel horsepower and 600 engine horsepower. I am still unaware of any other company that offers a supercharger system for a Vantage in the US. I know RSC if offering them but I have yet to see one in person or speak to someone who has purchased one in Europe. If your friends online are interested in a group buy of at least 10 ESX Super Vantage supercharger systems, we can supply the parts in our kit for $17,995. That would be with a harmonic balancer core charge of $350. Once they have installed the system they could simply mail us back their old harmonic balancers, or pay $350. Please note that these kits are not an easy install. Each one needs to be installed with an expert mechanic, whom preferably has significant Aston Martin experience. Each kit needs to have custom installation and tuning. There's only two companies I can think of that can do this install, one is us here in Los Angeles and the other is National Speed in North Carolina. National Speed has had significant experience with them. Obviously we are here to help them via email and telephone, but it really takes a great mechanic to work with the Astons. Please let me know if you have interest. The systems would need 3 weeks to build and at least a 50% deposit and 50% due upon shipment. Thanks again and I hope you enjoy your Super Vantage. Ali" |
Tahoe your post reminded me - I should address that for our kit as well. Install time is currently looking like 12-13 hours. There is no fabrication or tuning required, this is a plug and play kit. Comes with the charger, inlet manifold, fuel and water injection systems ready assembled and calibrated.
While I wouldn't recommend that your local muffler shop installs this, I know of a lot of shops who would be 100 percent capable of the install, and we also provide a full step-by-step instruction manual. |
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