Drove the V12 Yesterday ...
 

First time I drove the V12 I never really got to put it through its paces, but yesterday I finally had the chance to drive her HARD for an extended period of time. After having had a chance to gather my thoughts, I finally came to some interesting conclusions ...

First, Obviously that V12 is a magical powerplant. It does have an amazing broad smooth wave of torque no matter where you are in the power band. The Torque is instantaneous and will lightup the tires anywhere in first gear and you can chirp them even going into 3rd with a fast enough shift. The Engine actually does sound much better in person than it does on videos, so I will give it that. The V12 does have a unique character in its power delivery as well.

However ... The one real achilles heel of the V12 is its top-end. Past 5000rpm it honestly just falls flat, there's not nearly as much pull on the top end as well sorted out V8 (my 4.3L fully modded honestly felt faster past 5000rpm). Past 5000 it just maintains power but it does not pull ferociously towards redline like my decently modded 4.3L V8 didm for the most part it just feels like more noise. In many ways the V8s & V12s have opposite power bands. V8s have no torque under 5000 really (4.7s have a bit more obviously), but the V12s have ocean wave of torque below 5000, but not that much power up top past 5000. I am starting to realize in stock form the 4.7L may be the best compromise of the two for those who do not want to mod their cars at all. Moreover, there's almost too much low end torque on the V12s so you just spin the tires and lose much of the extra power on paper. It feels more like 470-490 than the full 510. The one I drove was a very low mileage model (only 3k) so I know it is in top spec form and in good running condition, its just a design flaw that the V12s have due to their extremely choked off exhaust systems.

With that said, we now know after seeing just how horrifically restrictive the V12 headers are (thanks to the new V12 headers posts) WHY it falls so flat on its face past 5000rpm. With the addition of performance V12 headers a good 40-50HP easy should be obtainable (if not more). Obviously that problem can be rectified quite easily (albeit very expensively).

Although, you could argue that you can also apply those same gains to a V8 and still end up with a more potent car at the end of the day. I now realize a fully prepped V8 may be the best balanced car overall. It may not have the V12 charisma or smoothness in power delivery, but in many ways it still retains enough of the 4.3Ls unrefined raw nature making it more exciting & exhilarating to drive. The V8's huge advantage is RPMs, you can safely rev the engine to 7600rpm (via ECU tune) where as the V12 is capped at 7000 (nor should you up it from there).

The one area where the V12 is by far better, is the transmission. Its without a doubt WAY smoother and more precise shifting than the V8s. In addition, the V12 throttle response was shockingly quicker than the V8s (You would think it would be reverse with all that extra rotating mass). Lastly, the interior on the V12 Carbon black is by far the nicest of all the interiors I have seen (Vantage S piano black interior a very close 2nd). However, Carbon blacks only come in black and are almost double the price of a decent 4.7L V8 (even more compared to the 4.3L). I'm really starting to wonder if its worth almost double the premium :confused:

I will be driving another 4.7L on monday just to confirm my suspicions again before I finally take the jump back into the Aston world (its been a long time coming). As much as I love my Lambo, I NEED another aston again. I realized, NOTHING drives like an Aston ... period.

The perfect Aston may be a highly tuned 4.7L done properly (in many ways the what Vince did with his project). I probably wouldn't go as far as opening up the motor and touching internals (not necessary in my opinion, you can get the similar power with the right bolt-on setup), but overall his concept was correct. Highly Tuned 4.7L is the sportiest option.

I am slowly beginning to think the best route to go is get a nice 2009 4.7L V8 and go to town on it, it would be the best bang per buck out of all the options and may actually end up being the best overall performance option of the three choices. (only reason I say 2009 is I prefer the Red Tails and their prices have dropped significantly, you could do this to any 4.7L from 09-12 of course).

With that said ... I cannot even imagine what the V12 would sound like with Long Tubes :eek: :eek: :D :cool:

007

Thanks for the write-up. I really like the v12. Have thought numerous times of trading in my less than year old V8 vantage for one. The main reason I haven't is because a 12 cylinder exotic sports car should feel like it could lose control at any point in the acceleration and clearly the V12 doesn't 4.2 sec 0-60 is laughable. My old BMW 135 does that.

I'm still considering one though but the V12 just doesn't make me love it any more than my V8.

^More to life than 0-60 times.

I would be interested to read what drew you back to Aston Martin over the Lambo. I've never had a Lambo or a Ferrari, for that matter, and sometimes wonder if I've missed something. :rolleyes:

0-100 kph on 4.2, that's actually 0-62 mph. 0-60 is closer to 4-4.1.

But is that really laughable?? The best time I can see for your 135i is 0-60 mph in 5.0. Even the 2012 1m is listed at 4.4 from 0-60.

Speed is easy and cheap. The total drive experience is where the magic is. The V12 excels as a total driving experience. That's how it feels for me and that's what most of the better reviewers felt.

I love that v12 motor, and I never feel like it is losing its breath. It does not sing at 8500 rpm like the V10 in my R8, but it spools up equally fast and it has a mountain of torque.

As far as a car needed to feel like it will lose control, for me the V12 has that in spades. My R8 less so. The V12 will step out any time you want it too. The ESP is not that intrusive and I always felt mayhem is just hiding under the skin. Punch the pedal, light the tires and listen to the thunderous exhaust note.

My R8 has the faster track times and the more controlled drive. That car wants you to be a hero. The V12 Vantage on the other hand is slower and louder, but more thrilling and equally sublime. The V12 wants you to be epic.

0-60 times don't tell the whole story. It's like judging sex through the lenses of pornography.

Track the fast car, covet the sublime one.

Trust me, the V12V feels dangerous very often, certainly more so than any BMW let alone a 135. It's limitation is traction. The rear end gets squirrelly if you're too aggressive. I have a feeling that you haven't driven one though. I had a V8 for 3 years and it was great but no offense, there is no comparison. There are 2-3 other guys on the forum that have made the transition and I'm sure that they feel the same way.

@jaymoney, you are on the money. I feel the exact same way. I was buying a Ford Gt and drove the V12 just as the deal was at its final haggling. The V12 drove the way the GT looked, the GT on the other hand drove like a GT, unless you were to push it REALLY hard. I felt the car was in exciting unless you were willing to go to jail). The V12 on the other hand was always exciting, it is a very dialled in road car.

I am currently considering build an RCR GT40 as I wanted my GT experience to be more alive. I would likely trade the R8 V10 for that car. But it's all just ideas at the moment. Cars get under your skin

I was also coming from a V8V. This is exactly how I feel about my V12 Vantage:

I was thinking the same thing. You immediately started talking about coming back to Aston someday after you bought the Lambo. What is it missing?

^^ depends on the Lambo. i drove an earlier-year Gallardo earlier this year and absolutely hated it.

Interesting and I agree with some of the points, notably the torque difference and the shift quality.

For me, the torque difference is less about tire spinning shenanigans in the first few gears, and much more about driveability. The V12 is a car that is far more enjoyable at 5/10 than the V8 for this reason. Just ambling along on a scenic drive, or in stop and go traffic, this is a crucial factor separating the engines. Let's face it, the press focuses too much on the 'Ring lap times and raw numbers, and sometimes it's easy to forget that most of us live in the REAL world.

Can't say I find the V12's top end disappointing. I'm not disagreeing with the analysis of the headers/exhaust, just that I thoroughly enjoy revving mine out to redline and I don't feel it is particularly lacking. There can be a real rush from a powerplant that gives an extra kick at the top end, but I find the linear response of the V12 across the rev range a refreshing and defining character.

Would be curious to hear your impressions on suspension and brakes. The more I think about it, the V12 suspension is perhaps the biggest advantage I have noticed, coming from a sport pack 4.7 V8. Just night and day in terms of roll control and cohesion between the front and rear ends.

Lastly, it's nice to talk about comparing modded V8's with the V12, but we could just as well start talking about modded V12's. There are those who will always want to be tweaking their cars, and there are those who seek out the car that best satisfies without any tuning. Whatever floats your boat... granted that modding can be done successfully, and more power to anyone who tries, but IME it is VERY difficult to tune a car for gain in one area without a comparable or worse loss in another area.

@Spinecho, the suspension and brakes are killer in the V12. They really upped the game in that area and it shows. The car feels like a more aggressive and cohesive whole.

For me the word is ALIVE.

That's a pretty lame comment.


black penguin, my 135i, with the only mod performed being a set of non-flat tires, was 0-60 in 4.2 seconds nearly every time. We've had this discussion before also...with the TTRS. I routinely got 4.0 or 3.9 seconds on it.

jaymoney, i've driven just about everything on and off the track but not the v12 Vantage as my dealership doesnt have one and being in Vegas I am limited to options. I have driven other v12 they have and have some idea on the capabilities of the engine. Very powerful and very fun.

My only real gripe is the quick off the line times being slower than they should be for a v12. Nothing wrong with my criticism and I know more than most that there's more to life than 0-60 times (I do own a v8 vantage, after all :))

At the $150k level the v8 vantage and v10 R8 are really the only options I find interesting. At the $200k level though it opens up considerably more. I start looking at lambos, ferraris and a broader range of Astons. Not sure the v12 Vantage would be my top choice at that price point.

Hmm, you seem to be finding .5 second on any time I have seen posted. You must know something the car mags don't, and most of their times are with roll out.

I have had two TTRS's, fast cars. With a chip, very fast cars. But going fast is not everything. Mine was setup by well, LOBA brakes, Yokohama's, competition Haldex unit, proper alignment etc. Even with all of that, I would rather go slower in the Aston. It's a much more engaging ride.

The thing about cars is they are all different. It's not wise to judge them all by the same criteria, otherwise we would all drive GTR's.

I drive a V12 Vantage and an R8 because they are so different, and I look forward to buying other cars that offer something even more differentiated like an RCR GT40 replica for the track. Each car has a strength depending on what you want from it.

Fast cars are a dime a dozen, amazing cars are rare.

Yes, and in line with your first post.