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aracerx 09-22-2003 08:52 AM

that game of power!
The thread now makes more logic in terms of numbers and more importantly, usage.
We are now defining the use of these "somewhat" limited powerplants which we create for "certain" clients.
Ethically/Morally, and as a business person, I make sure that the client understands the limitations of what he wants AND what he can reasonably expect. Voila, gone are the unrealistic people which rely too much on ads in magazines or on the net.
However, Some clients just don't want to hear the truth and go elsewhere only to communicate years later and lament on their choices. Without the discussion, I presume I could be busier than a pair of jumper cables in Usay Hussein's garage, but it's not the way to go.
Just last week we had a 91 911 with the traditional cylinder head leakage come in for a clutch. The client expected that we could eliminate his leaks by changing lines, etc. I told him it would still leak and he subsequently had others do this for him, resulting in nothing but continuing leaks. So, they do exercise a lack of understanding.
We have had the watercooled 962 four valved engines run on methanol and the power curves were impressive, however these are dedicated race engines with "breathable" intake and exhaust tracts.
As stated previously in this thread AND correctly I might add, the production engines (water and air) cannot produce these enormous numbers because of the limitations in air flow on the in and the out sides of the combustion chamber.
For us, the 100 hp increases through ECU and Blowers/Cat changes seem to make the most sense for the 996 Turbo's. In addition, they seem to be the most cost effective and reliable changes made in performance while allowing the client to go to an occasional D.E.
The one area that isn't discussed in length EVER is the Brakes, when they do go to D.E.'s. They SUCK, big time, and are in need of help to get through a weekend at a track such as The Glen.
It seems to me to make more sense in improving areas of the car the need it; for us, the engine really doesn't need improvements that cost so much for the momentary use it is expected to get-as in a blast down a freeway.
What about the enormous weight that the factory has put into these cars? The cup cars we have weight in at 7-800 lbs less!
Granted they are full race versions, but can you imagine a 996turbo stripped down AND four wheel drive-ROCK ON.
Weight reduction means performance improvement AND stopping improvements.
OK, OK..I'm off the box now...takechances?gofastdrivePorsche-Mark

racer63 09-22-2003 11:58 AM

Excellent advice from Chad. Also don't forget about those brakes!

Even the 600 HP mode will be a handful given the weight of the car... As long as you are putting the money into it, I'd go with the big brembo setup, stainless lines, ducting to the center of the rotors, and race pads for the day of the event...

sharkster 09-22-2003 12:05 PM

I saw those brake ducting kits for sale somewhere for like 500? Maybe it was performanceproducts.com or evoms.com. Not sure but I know Oak has a set (Cargaphic I think?) so he'll know...

racer63 09-22-2003 12:08 PM

Buddy -

One other nagging thought on this issue. Not to be a Nag... :D

But... have you done other DEs or racing events in the past? Even with AWD and PSM, 600-700 HP can be a handful on the track. (Also, PSM sucks on the track... another topic.) If you haven't, I'd recommend learning racecraft in something that is relatively cheap and disposable. To me, relatively cheap means the thing costs no more than say 5% of your net worth. :) That way, if it gets boogered up, or worse yet, totaled, the (financial) impact will be minimal.

Ok, as long as I'm being a nag... the more important issue is safety. I would never drive a 600-700 HP car at full speed on a road course without a racing cage, racing belts, well designed (not cheap) Snell 02-reated helmet, and HANS device.

OK. back off the soap box for now.

Yours in speed from the (not really) Panzy in a Panzer hilarious


ColorChange 09-22-2003 01:13 PM


Tell me about stock brake issues. I am looking at Stage 4GT upgrade for the occasional DE's next winter, this winter, suspension mods. Most people say the stock brakes are pretty good, just might need to boost cooling. What are your thoughts/experience?

buddyg 09-22-2003 04:44 PM


I have tons of track time in DE's, Skip Barber Formula Dodge and spent 2 years as a pro Stock Car driver in ASA. I think I can handle the car!! Thanks for the concern, because you are right the best mod you can make to your car is to learn how to drive!

I have harnesses, fire suit, etc... Trying to find a rollcage that will still allow me to use my backseats. I have small kids who like to sit back there!


racer63 09-22-2003 05:46 PM

Tim -

On Improved Touring racecars, we've always been able to get by with stock brakes - even very crappy stock brakes - upgraded with only stainless lines, high temp fluid, brake ducting from the air dam to the center of the rotors, and a good race pad. However, a good IT car is probably at best 25%-30% more powerful than it's stock counterpart. With the Stage 4GT, you're boosting power by roughly 50%. So, you may need to go to the Brembo setup.

On the other hand, some racers are easier on brakes than others (holding effectiveness constant). If you are easy on brakes (relative to others), then you just might get by with the stockers.

It also will depend on the tracks that you frequent. Some tracks are much easier (harder) on brakes than others.

Unfortunately, it's an empirical question. You won't know for certain without giving it a try.

racer63 09-22-2003 05:55 PM

Well, I just had to at least ask! I had this nagging thought that, what if Buddy hasn't done DEs before and is heading out on the track to learn in this 700 HP beast.

Unfortunately, all that you need to afford such a fine automobile is a fat bank account or nice paycheck... no driving skill/experience is required. Believe me, I've seen it happen (driver's bank account exceeds skill level by wide margin) many times instructing at various DEs! :(

Enjoy the car!

Yours in speed,

buddyg 09-22-2003 09:37 PM


That was me when I first bought my 1997 993 turbo. That was before Skippy or Stock cars or anything. I THOUGHT I was a pretty good driver (had never been on a track before) and of course I had an awesome 400 HP turbo Porsche.

First time out I think I spun the thing 3 times trying to mirror drive a 944 that was eating me alive in the corners!! Let's just say the chief instructor had a little chat with me about learning how to drive and not driving beyond my ability!!

I learned alot that weekend and found out how much I needed to learn to become a better driver!! Hence the skippy classes which lead to skippy racing then stock cars, etc...


racer63 09-22-2003 10:15 PM

All right. Here's my embarassing, pre-racing story. Like most men, I always thought I was a great driver (despite a complete lack of training at the time). So I get this brand new 93 RX7 twin turbo that handled like it was on rails and had way more power than anything I'd ever driven. Having learned to drive in 70s vintage POS vehicles, I'd never actually experienced any real power. So, the third day out in the car, I take this up hill, clover leaf on ramp, with a bad off-camber situation at the apex (not that I knew off camber from my arse at the time) and think to myself, "I can floor it coming out of this corner." So I do. Of course, the rear end comes out, I apply too much correction at the front, careen into a wall with the driver's left (air bag pops), continue spinning, hit the opposite corner, shoot across the road into the adjacent wall, clipping yet a third corner of the vehicle. All this after initiating a spin at a speed below 60 mph. :confused: Finally I come to a rest, stirred by not shaken.

The car should have been a total loss. Unfortunately, the insurance company decided to fix it. 26K and 2 mos later, it's back on the road... to die an unseemly death by fire just a year later, in exactly the same spot. (But that's a whole 'nother story about burning RX7s and subsequent product recalls...)

Any way, it wasn't too long after that when I signed up for Bondurant, got hooked on racing, and have since spent a small fortune on sheet metal, tires, brakes, and other miscellaneous race stuff. Sounds like you've had a pretty similar experience! :D

ColorChange 09-23-2003 06:28 AM

Me Too
Racer 63:

I feel like some week shadow. First, have you installed your changer yet? I am expecting mine from Gert any day.

I am generally fairly hard on brakes, relatively easy on tires bit tough on brakes. I am looking at the brembo's from beastpower. Still sticking with 18" probably for better track handling (right?).

Tell me why you are going to the HRE's. I also plan to do the valentine and lidatek, and the PSS('s you are doing. I already received the EVO short shifter and ordered the shift link.

Please give me any input on your install tips.

racer63 09-23-2003 09:15 AM

I haven't done the CD changer - next week.

I like the HREs for looks and low weight. 18s because I can get race rubber in that size, whereas there does not appear to be any race rubber in 19". Also, I got a smokin deal on the HRE 540Rs ($3500 new).

Valentine works great. Lidatek is next week.

PSS9s are also next week.

The B&M w/ EVO shift link is exquisite. The best shifter feel and throw that I've ever experienced.

I'm actually having Todd and his crew do most of the installs. I can fix/install simple things. And I ususally wrench on the race car, so I know what to fix if something breaks at the track. But, I've had Todd do most of the work on the 996 due to time constraints and his obviously superior skill. (which is far superior to mine!)

Marcus Frost 09-23-2003 10:13 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: power play

The 2JZGTE's bearing caps are 2 bolt, not 6 bolt. It's bore x stroke is also 86.0mm x 86.0mm.

Originally posted by racer63
Back to my original post, I don't think that most people who build 900-1000 HP motors are all that interested in reliability...

Again, just my $0.02.

You would be mistaken. My car makes ~1000hp @ 32psi and I am very concerned with reliability. I run nothing but 110 octane even though my street boost level, 18psi, does not really require it if I were to soften my timing maps. I do this simply because 110 is much better for a turbocharged motor than 93 octane. I am almost always monitoring my car's sensors via datalogging to make sure everything is in check as well. The car has spent hours on the dyno tuning it at various boost levels to make sure it runs well with my standalone engine management system.

The one subjective term here is "streetable"... I feel my car is very streetable, but I think some of you guys may disagree. I know that Porsche motors have a lot of potential... do any of you remember Eddie Bello and his '93 911? Ran low 9s @ 160mph+... that was a sick fast 911. I don't know if he used a water cooled or air cooled block though. He called his car streetable and even drove it to and from events... it didn't look very comfortable though ;)



racer63 09-23-2003 10:55 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: power play
I said:
Originally posted by racer63
Back to my original post, I don't think that most people who build 900-1000 HP motors are all that interested in reliability...

Again, just my $0.02.

Originally posted by Marcus Frost

You would be mistaken. My car makes ~1000hp @ 32psi and I am very concerned with reliability. I run nothing but 110 octane even though my street boost level, <clip>

Marcus -

I think that 1-2 people must have really misunderstood what I was saying. I was making a very general statement, based on observations about many people that I know who want highly modified cars - and are not concerned with reliability.

The fact that you are concerned with reliability (as am I) is great, and I applaud you for it. But, the fact remains there are a ton of people out there who build a car with the attitude that "well, if I blow the motor, that's a great excuse to rebuild it even better". That, in my mind, suggests that they are not all that concerned with reliability. That is all I am saying. Nothing more, nothing less. I am NOT saying that ALL people who build 1000 HP motors are unconcerned with reliability. Just a majority (>50%) appear not to be too terribly interested in the longevity of their motors...)

It is not a criticism at all. I think people should spend money how they see fit. You and I spend money to get reliable HP. Others spend it to go as fast as possible, reliability be damned.

BTW, my comment was actually intended as a reply to aracerx who was suggesting that very high HP figures could not be obtained in a 996TT (the caveat being that he was really saying he did not believe that it could be done reliably). I did not even address his point of whether it could or could not be done with reliability as I think his defintion (a motor that could last through a 24 hour enduro - just a guess, may be wrong) is probably different than the definition used by others in this discussion (occassional 1/4 mi runs, fast acceleration on the street, occassional DEs).

HotRodGuy 09-23-2003 12:16 PM

I think that was directed at marcus and not me :confused:

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