997.1 Turbo vs 996 turbo
#16
07-24-2016, 07:43 PM
I am curious if you have spent time on the track yet? This is a serious car that needs a highly capable driver. If you haven't spent considerable time on the track, it is quite likely that a car this powerful would lead to bad habits that could hinder the learning process. If you have spent a lot of time on the track then you are going to use a huge amount of consumables due to being fast. There will be considerably more running costs to keep something this fast on the track than something even a bit slower. If you miss a shift, could you afford a potential $10k+ expenditure to fix the engine? Tires will be a very high cost as well. Both the 6 and 7 will be will likely be over 1k for a new set of tires for the track. I just wanted to throw that out there. Good luck no matter the decision.
#17
07-25-2016, 04:49 PM
Do most guys actually do rebuilt at 100hrs? I know that 8-10k miles on track easy but that seems like overkill unless you're actually circuit racing in a series. Guys just weekend racing for fun and club events I wouldn't think you'd have to do rebuilt quite so often? Correct me if I'm wrong here john.
#18
07-25-2016, 05:43 PM
Do most guys actually do rebuilt at 100hrs? I know that 8-10k miles on track easy but that seems like overkill unless you're actually circuit racing in a series. Guys just weekend racing for fun and club events I wouldn't think you'd have to do rebuilt quite so often? Correct me if I'm wrong here john.
100hrs is the recommended rebuild on a 996Cup motor which is basically a simple 380hp 3.6Mezger GT3 engine. Many teams will rebuild in the 30-40hr timeframe depending on race use. I feel comfortable using 100hrs as a guide as long as the oil filter stays free of any significant metal and the oil analysis looks good. We rebuilt my motor at 50K miles on it with right at 100 track hours, or close to 100 track days. At the time it was running relatively detuned. The engine was in good shape but was beginning to shed a decent amount of metal and show bearing wear. Oil analysis confirmed elevated metal wear. It would have likely gone another 20-30 hrs but the idea is to overhaul before it becomes an issue or you have a catastrophic failure.
I operate my engine very hard, on par with what a Cup motor will see. Continuous 7500 rpm shifts and running all out for 20-30 minutes at a time. The difference is that I'm putting 600hp/670tq to the ground through the engine which is almost 2x of what a 6cup motors puts out. My shop built my engine as basically a Turbo Cup motor, built with better rods, an RSR double oiled crank, RSR pump, high rpm valve train, etc., all done to allow it to operate for extended periods of hard operation. In stock form with a stock crank and pump, I don't see it holding up as well as it does. Even so, I'm expecting 100 hrs to be a good number for rebuild. Depending of what I see in my filter we may go a little longer or a little less. This would amount to about 3-4 year for me which I consider very good.
Gearboxes will likely not go 100 hrs, probably 50hrs largely dependent on the operator and their ability to properly shift in the heat of battle. One missed shift can granade a gearbox (and engine). Again, at 100hrs my gearbox looked good (it had a synchro refresh a few year back) but there was evidence of metal fatigue on some of the internals when closely examined with a trained eye. Even at my modest hp I've managed to granate an LSD, gearbox output shafts, hubs, etc. I have the heavier duty 997GT2RS gearing a mainshaft along with a gearbox cooler which keep the temps in check. With a non cooled box, I would see the rebuild life to be cut in half due to the excessive temps. Based on the temps I see, without a gearbox cooler I would not be able to operate the car the way I do. 50hrs is my estimation for a heavily tracked car, or about every 2 years. I expect about 40-50hrs between rebuild on my box.
Again, these number are for a road course car running at or near Cup pace. When I was running even 5 seconds slower per 2 minute lap, I was breaking much less stuff. Pushing the car at the limit really makes wear and tear go through the roof. Rebuild intervals for a street or occasional drag strip car which only see the occasional full throttle burst will be much much greater.
Last edited by pwdrhound; 07-25-2016 at 07:21 PM.
#19
07-25-2016, 06:08 PM
No most guys do not. Then again, you don't have that many guys track the Turbo cars all that hard. Over the years I have yet to run into anyone that would really hammer the TT. All the hardcore track guys are predominantly in GT3s or Cups. As you know, the majority of the TT modded cars see straight line drag racing instead of road course duty. Street or straight line racing induces much less wear and tear.
100hrs is the recommended rebuild on a 996Cup motor which is basically a simple 380hp 3.6Mezger GT3 engine. Many teams will rebuild in the 30-40hr timeframe depending on race use. I feel comfortable using 100hrs as a guide as long as the oil filter stays free of any significant metal and the oil analysis looks good. We rebuilt my motor at 50K miles on it with right at 100 track hours, or close to 100 track days. At the time it was running relatively detuned. The engine was in good shape but was beginning to shed a decent amount of metal and show bearing wear. Oil analysis confirmed elevated metal wear. It would have likely gone another 20-30 hrs but the idea is to overhaul before it becomes an issue or you have a catastrophic failure.
I operate my engine very hard, on par with what a Cup motor will see. Continuous 7500 rpm shifts and running all out for 20-30 minutes at a time. The difference is that I'm putting 600hp/670tq to the ground through the engine which is almost 2x of what a 6cup motors puts out. My shop built my engine as basically a Turbo Cup motor, built with better rods, an RSR double oiled crank, RSR pump, high rpm valve train, etc., all done to allow it to operate for extended periods of hard operation. In stock form with a stock crank and pump, I don't see it holding up as well as it does. Even so, I'm expecting 100 hrs to be a good number for rebuild. Depending of what I see in my filter we may go a little longer or a little less. This would amount to about 3-4 year for me which I consider very good.
Gearboxes will likely not go 100 hrs, probably 50hrs largely dependent on the operator and their ability to properly shift in the heat of battle. One missed shift can granade a gearbox (and engine). Again, at 100hrs my gearbox looked good (it had a synchro refresh a few year back) but there was evidence of metal fatigue on some of the internals when closely examined with a trained eye. Even at my modest hp I've managed to granate an LSD, gearbox output shafts, hubs, etc. I have the heavier duty 997GT2RS gearing a mainshaft along with a gearbox cooler which keep the temps in check. With a non cooled box, I would see the rebuild life to be cut in half due to the excessive temps. Based on the temps I see, without a gearbox cooler I would not be able to operate the car the way I do. 50hrs is my estimation for a heavily tracked car, or about every 2 years. I expect about 40-50hrs between rebuild on my box.
Again, these number are for a road course car running at or near Cup pace. When I was running even 5 seconds slower per 2 minute lap, I was breaking much less stuff. Pushing the car at the limit really makes wear and tear go through the roof. Rebuild intervals for a street or occasional drag strip car which only see the occasional full throttle burst will be much much greater.
100hrs is the recommended rebuild on a 996Cup motor which is basically a simple 380hp 3.6Mezger GT3 engine. Many teams will rebuild in the 30-40hr timeframe depending on race use. I feel comfortable using 100hrs as a guide as long as the oil filter stays free of any significant metal and the oil analysis looks good. We rebuilt my motor at 50K miles on it with right at 100 track hours, or close to 100 track days. At the time it was running relatively detuned. The engine was in good shape but was beginning to shed a decent amount of metal and show bearing wear. Oil analysis confirmed elevated metal wear. It would have likely gone another 20-30 hrs but the idea is to overhaul before it becomes an issue or you have a catastrophic failure.
I operate my engine very hard, on par with what a Cup motor will see. Continuous 7500 rpm shifts and running all out for 20-30 minutes at a time. The difference is that I'm putting 600hp/670tq to the ground through the engine which is almost 2x of what a 6cup motors puts out. My shop built my engine as basically a Turbo Cup motor, built with better rods, an RSR double oiled crank, RSR pump, high rpm valve train, etc., all done to allow it to operate for extended periods of hard operation. In stock form with a stock crank and pump, I don't see it holding up as well as it does. Even so, I'm expecting 100 hrs to be a good number for rebuild. Depending of what I see in my filter we may go a little longer or a little less. This would amount to about 3-4 year for me which I consider very good.
Gearboxes will likely not go 100 hrs, probably 50hrs largely dependent on the operator and their ability to properly shift in the heat of battle. One missed shift can granade a gearbox (and engine). Again, at 100hrs my gearbox looked good (it had a synchro refresh a few year back) but there was evidence of metal fatigue on some of the internals when closely examined with a trained eye. Even at my modest hp I've managed to granate an LSD, gearbox output shafts, hubs, etc. I have the heavier duty 997GT2RS gearing a mainshaft along with a gearbox cooler which keep the temps in check. With a non cooled box, I would see the rebuild life to be cut in half due to the excessive temps. Based on the temps I see, without a gearbox cooler I would not be able to operate the car the way I do. 50hrs is my estimation for a heavily tracked car, or about every 2 years. I expect about 40-50hrs between rebuild on my box.
Again, these number are for a road course car running at or near Cup pace. When I was running even 5 seconds slower per 2 minute lap, I was breaking much less stuff. Pushing the car at the limit really makes wear and tear go through the roof. Rebuild intervals for a street or occasional drag strip car which only see the occasional full throttle burst will be much much greater.
#20
07-28-2016, 08:52 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Age: 40
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No most guys do not. Then again, you don't have that many guys track the Turbo cars all that hard. Over the years, with the exception of one or two guys, I have yet to run into anyone that would really hammer the TT. All the hardcore track guys are predominantly in GT3s or Cups. As you know, the majority of the TT modded cars see straight line drag racing instead of road course duty. Street or straight line racing induces much less wear and tear.
100hrs is the recommended rebuild on a 996Cup motor which is basically a simple 380hp 3.6Mezger GT3 engine. Many teams will rebuild in the 30-40hr timeframe depending on race use. I feel comfortable using 100hrs as a guide as long as the oil filter stays free of any significant metal and the oil analysis looks good. We rebuilt my motor at 50K miles on it with right at 100 track hours, or close to 100 track days. At the time it was running relatively detuned. The engine was in good shape but was beginning to shed a decent amount of metal and show bearing wear. Oil analysis confirmed elevated metal wear. It would have likely gone another 20-30 hrs but the idea is to overhaul before it becomes an issue or you have a catastrophic failure.
I operate my engine very hard, on par with what a Cup motor will see. Continuous 7500 rpm shifts and running all out for 20-30 minutes at a time. The difference is that I'm putting 600hp/670tq to the ground through the engine which is almost 2x of what a 6cup motors puts out. My shop built my engine as basically a Turbo Cup motor, built with better rods, an RSR double oiled crank, RSR pump, high rpm valve train, etc., all done to allow it to operate for extended periods of hard operation. In stock form with a stock crank and pump, I don't see it holding up as well as it does. Even so, I'm expecting 100 hrs to be a good number for rebuild. Depending of what I see in my filter we may go a little longer or a little less. This would amount to about 3-4 year for me which I consider very good.
Gearboxes will likely not go 100 hrs, probably 50hrs largely dependent on the operator and their ability to properly shift in the heat of battle. One missed shift can granade a gearbox (and engine). Again, at 100hrs my gearbox looked good (it had a synchro refresh a few year back) but there was evidence of metal fatigue on some of the internals when closely examined with a trained eye. Even at my modest hp I've managed to granate an LSD, gearbox output shafts, hubs, etc. I have the heavier duty 997GT2RS gearing a mainshaft along with a gearbox cooler which keep the temps in check. With a non cooled box, I would see the rebuild life to be cut in half due to the excessive temps. Based on the temps I see, without a gearbox cooler I would not be able to operate the car the way I do. 50hrs is my estimation for a heavily tracked car, or about every 2 years. I expect about 40-50hrs between rebuild on my box.
Again, these number are for a road course car running at or near Cup pace. When I was running even 5 seconds slower per 2 minute lap, I was breaking much less stuff. Pushing the car at the limit really makes wear and tear go through the roof. Rebuild intervals for a street or occasional drag strip car which only see the occasional full throttle burst will be much much greater.
100hrs is the recommended rebuild on a 996Cup motor which is basically a simple 380hp 3.6Mezger GT3 engine. Many teams will rebuild in the 30-40hr timeframe depending on race use. I feel comfortable using 100hrs as a guide as long as the oil filter stays free of any significant metal and the oil analysis looks good. We rebuilt my motor at 50K miles on it with right at 100 track hours, or close to 100 track days. At the time it was running relatively detuned. The engine was in good shape but was beginning to shed a decent amount of metal and show bearing wear. Oil analysis confirmed elevated metal wear. It would have likely gone another 20-30 hrs but the idea is to overhaul before it becomes an issue or you have a catastrophic failure.
I operate my engine very hard, on par with what a Cup motor will see. Continuous 7500 rpm shifts and running all out for 20-30 minutes at a time. The difference is that I'm putting 600hp/670tq to the ground through the engine which is almost 2x of what a 6cup motors puts out. My shop built my engine as basically a Turbo Cup motor, built with better rods, an RSR double oiled crank, RSR pump, high rpm valve train, etc., all done to allow it to operate for extended periods of hard operation. In stock form with a stock crank and pump, I don't see it holding up as well as it does. Even so, I'm expecting 100 hrs to be a good number for rebuild. Depending of what I see in my filter we may go a little longer or a little less. This would amount to about 3-4 year for me which I consider very good.
Gearboxes will likely not go 100 hrs, probably 50hrs largely dependent on the operator and their ability to properly shift in the heat of battle. One missed shift can granade a gearbox (and engine). Again, at 100hrs my gearbox looked good (it had a synchro refresh a few year back) but there was evidence of metal fatigue on some of the internals when closely examined with a trained eye. Even at my modest hp I've managed to granate an LSD, gearbox output shafts, hubs, etc. I have the heavier duty 997GT2RS gearing a mainshaft along with a gearbox cooler which keep the temps in check. With a non cooled box, I would see the rebuild life to be cut in half due to the excessive temps. Based on the temps I see, without a gearbox cooler I would not be able to operate the car the way I do. 50hrs is my estimation for a heavily tracked car, or about every 2 years. I expect about 40-50hrs between rebuild on my box.
Again, these number are for a road course car running at or near Cup pace. When I was running even 5 seconds slower per 2 minute lap, I was breaking much less stuff. Pushing the car at the limit really makes wear and tear go through the roof. Rebuild intervals for a street or occasional drag strip car which only see the occasional full throttle burst will be much much greater.
I have been thinking about this for a few days. It amazes me that the number is this high, but in reality it isn't for racing. I remember reading in an old issue of Evo that it was $2500 an hour to keep a Cup car on the track so I guess the Turbo is a relative bargain. That number has always stuck in my mind as interesting. Thanks for the great info! Out of curiosity, do you use slicks or street tires on the track? How many miles do you get out of a set of tires on track?
I have a simple Miata that I keep for the track. Most all of the modifications I have done to it were suspension, oiling system and cooling. It is almost undriveable on the street because of the extensive suspension modifications. I only track it at High Plains Raceway. I always laugh because I get passed on the longer straights, but even with my VERY limited track knowledge, there is almost nothing that can get away from me in the corners. One of my favorite elements of the Miata is that it is quite a bit less than $550 an hour to keep on track! Probably mainly because I am not pushing it anywhere near as hard as it is possible to. In my mind I am in pure bliss though!
#21
07-28-2016, 09:39 AM
I have been thinking about this for a few days. It amazes me that the number is this high, but in reality it isn't for racing. I remember reading in an old issue of Evo that it was $2500 an hour to keep a Cup car on the track so I guess the Turbo is a relative bargain. That number has always stuck in my mind as interesting. Thanks for the great info! Out of curiosity, do you use slicks or street tires on the track? How many miles do you get out of a set of tires on track?
I have a simple Miata that I keep for the track. Most all of the modifications I have done to it were suspension, oiling system and cooling. It is almost undriveable on the street because of the extensive suspension modifications. I only track it at High Plains Raceway. I always laugh because I get passed on the longer straights, but even with my VERY limited track knowledge, there is almost nothing that can get away from me in the corners. One of my favorite elements of the Miata is that it is quite a bit less than $550 an hour to keep on track! Probably mainly because I am not pushing it anywhere near as hard as it is possible to. In my mind I am in pure bliss though!
I have a simple Miata that I keep for the track. Most all of the modifications I have done to it were suspension, oiling system and cooling. It is almost undriveable on the street because of the extensive suspension modifications. I only track it at High Plains Raceway. I always laugh because I get passed on the longer straights, but even with my VERY limited track knowledge, there is almost nothing that can get away from me in the corners. One of my favorite elements of the Miata is that it is quite a bit less than $550 an hour to keep on track! Probably mainly because I am not pushing it anywhere near as hard as it is possible to. In my mind I am in pure bliss though!
I can get 15 sessions or almost 4 days out of a set of 275/335 NT01s at $1100 per set. Pirelli Slicks are in a 275/645 and 325/660 and at $2400 per set last about 8-10 sessions, or 2+ days. That works out to $300 in tire wear per 30 minute session. Not exactly cheap. I'm brutal on tires though. I go through 7-8 sets of NT01s each year. If I was running slicks it would be double that which would amount to $36,000 in tire wear each year, or roughly $28K more than I spend on NT01s. Yeah, I'm willing to give up 2 seconds per lap from a cost perspective. Sure, to hammer out a time trial time I'd throw the slicks on. The other issue is that I'm already breaking hubs and other suspension components even on NT01s. With slicks providing much higher grip, it would only accelerate the maintenance schedule.
HPR is my home track. Actually running there tonight and tomorrow. What's a Miata turn a lap in, 2:12 or so on a decent day? I have a lot of time Spec Boxsters at that track and 5-7 seconds is the typical differential between a Spec Boxster and a Spec Miata.
Last edited by pwdrhound; 07-28-2016 at 09:45 AM.
#22
07-29-2016, 08:03 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Age: 40
Posts: 898
Rep Power: 69 $2500/hr is a good number on 997Cups. RSRs will be close to 2x that number due to the astronomical parts cost. 6Cups will be quite a bit cheaper, probably $1K or so as it's basically a 6GT3 with the biggest difference being tire cost. Slicks which go for $2200-2400 per set and give 8-10 sessions depending how hard you drive.
I can get 15 sessions or almost 4 days out of a set of 275/335 NT01s at $1100 per set. Pirelli Slicks are in a 275/645 and 325/660 and at $2400 per set last about 8-10 sessions, or 2+ days. That works out to $300 in tire wear per 30 minute session. Not exactly cheap. I'm brutal on tires though. I go through 7-8 sets of NT01s each year. If I was running slicks it would be double that which would amount to $36,000 in tire wear each year, or roughly $28K more than I spend on NT01s. Yeah, I'm willing to give up 2 seconds per lap from a cost perspective. Sure, to hammer out a time trial time I'd throw the slicks on. The other issue is that I'm already breaking hubs and other suspension components even on NT01s. With slicks providing much higher grip, it would only accelerate the maintenance schedule.
HPR is my home track. Actually running there tonight and tomorrow. What's a Miata turn a lap in, 2:12 or so on a decent day? I have a lot of time Spec Boxsters at that track and 5-7 seconds is the typical differential between a Spec Boxster and a Spec Miata.
I can get 15 sessions or almost 4 days out of a set of 275/335 NT01s at $1100 per set. Pirelli Slicks are in a 275/645 and 325/660 and at $2400 per set last about 8-10 sessions, or 2+ days. That works out to $300 in tire wear per 30 minute session. Not exactly cheap. I'm brutal on tires though. I go through 7-8 sets of NT01s each year. If I was running slicks it would be double that which would amount to $36,000 in tire wear each year, or roughly $28K more than I spend on NT01s. Yeah, I'm willing to give up 2 seconds per lap from a cost perspective. Sure, to hammer out a time trial time I'd throw the slicks on. The other issue is that I'm already breaking hubs and other suspension components even on NT01s. With slicks providing much higher grip, it would only accelerate the maintenance schedule.
HPR is my home track. Actually running there tonight and tomorrow. What's a Miata turn a lap in, 2:12 or so on a decent day? I have a lot of time Spec Boxsters at that track and 5-7 seconds is the typical differential between a Spec Boxster and a Spec Miata.
It is interesting that there is such a cost difference betweeen R compound and slicks! It makes sense though because of race parts. Enough said....
To be honest I really don't know what time my car runs. I would imagine with me at the helm it is about 2:20 or so. I am not timing myself yet because I am just looking to focus on getting better independent of my times. At this point it is about getting better with heel/toe shifting and taking the corners correctly. I also just enjoy going. I only made it 4 times last year to HPR. Ha ha I joke that my car is cursed it has had so many issues.... I still love her though!
Enjoy the track this weekend! I look forwards to seeing you out there sometime. I am in a very red 1999 Miata with a dent behind the drivers door. What are you driving?
Last edited by Gungriffin; 07-29-2016 at 08:06 AM.
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