This is a really interesting thread. Plumbing in turbos is the easy part. Not wrecking pistons, more difficult.


If I had a nickel for every time I heard that the AM ECUs were 'just Ford stuff....'

 

Are they not Stuart?

 

Dear Stuart,

Maybe you can offer to help with the ECU remap.? It has been suggested that you have successfully done this to accomodate headers and possibly the Supercharged Vantage for a forum user.

I am sure Anton would be appreciative. I know I would if I decide to build one of these V12TT's myself.

PS.. I don't think the suggestion was that the AM ECU is "just Ford Stuff" I think it was something like they are Ford ECU's running motorola processors with Spanish Oak software..

However, who am I to interpret what others make of my writing, or anyone else's writing on a public forum....

 

Anton,

Quick note..

I think to get over 600HP you will have to upgrade the fuel pumps and of course the fuel injectors. After doing a little digging in the Workshop Manual, I noted that the stock pumps are only good for 130 Liters per hour, so two pumps are 260L/PH. If the BSFC is .5, then it will quickly go lean past 600HP trying to overcome the differential fuel rail pressure and manifold pressure even if you up the voltage with a controller. By the way, the stock system already has a voltage regulator on the fuel pumps, and ups voltage based on rail temperature and possibly some other temps as well... (Need to figure out the algorithm or code to see for sure if it's only the fuel temp reading or others as well..)

Anyway, there are replacement in-tank pumps to be had. I think Aeromotive and Walbro make some, and are decent. I haven't dug into the Bosch Motorsports book yet, but I am sure Bosch also makes some. (I love the #044 Bosch pumps, but they are in-line, and the DB9/S needs an in-tank unit.)

The DB9 manifold is approximately 24 inches in length, and it should fit 4 Laminova 304mm cores with ease. I think the DBS should be similar in size, but you can measure it and see.

Update 7July: Bosch 040 in tank pumps would get my nod to replace the factory pumps. They can support more power than you may want in a TTV12. I think the rating is 300LPH for each pump. At .5 BSFC, you can have your 1000HP with ease. As an off the cuff calculation, If you decide to run 1bar pressure in the manifold at max, then the fuel system will have to make the fuel pressure rail map +1 bar to overcome the pressure in the manifold. Most fuel systems are calibrated at 3bar (43.5psi) so 1 additional will be 4 bar total rail pressure.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

 

Sorry if that was cryptic or offhand or whatever. I just didn't want to come across as overly opinionated. I have been involved in 3 separate supercharging projects for the V8 Vantage, none of which were commercially viable, and software has always been the biggest stumbling block. As with all such things, there's no such thing as impossible, it just depends up on how large of a check you wish to write. And from a business/commercial point of view, how much profit might be returned on the investment.


I didn't wish to dissuade anyone from doing it, and we are always interested in development projects. We're also possibly in a unique position as regards knowledge of the AM ECUs.


I just want to make sure that before anyone starts throwing money at the project, that they are aware that AM ECUs are unique, and although there's lots of brilliant people out there, I hope that the assumption that it will be easily Ford comparable is not driving the development.


So again, sorry if I came off wrong. I just wanted to be sure Anton is not about to go off and have a turbo setup knocked up without being certain about the software.... because I've seen that mistake made a few times now.

 

The other thing is.. I'd be concerned about doing it on stock pistons. And I would upgrade the oil cooling system. AM V12's do have some occasional oiling issues.

 

Ok,there seems to be some people with some knowledge of this stuff. Here's my angle/question. One of the things with my 04 Vanquish is the EXTREME engine compartment temp. The combination of the, what I imagine is the less than optimum exhaust gas flow out of the engine, the location of the cats and the lower skid plate makes the front of the car hot enough to literally fry an egg on it! It seems to add two turbos and additional pipes would ADD to the temp. Any experience from y'all on a supercharger set up?

 

This is more of a project thread for the twin-turbo project. I'd suggest starting a new thread to address your interest in a supercharger. It'll keep this thread on point and will keep your concern from getting lost in their conversation.

 

Hi Stuart,

Apologies accepted. It appeared cryptic to me, and I could have also misinterpreted your answer.

In any event, thanks for the offer of help if needed. As you have direct insight into the ECU maps and algorithms, I find that invaluable, and definitely understand the complexity of finding one's way around the software and embedded harwdare.

I fully understand the impliations of this type of project not being a commercialy viable kit, as the market is much too small. I fully support that reasoning, and believe I mentioned that here or maybe in another post. Also agree on the check writing part, with the caveat that it can be an indulgence in foolish spending if the parties concerned are not fully aware of the risks and limitations in building such a vehicle.

With that said, hopefully something can come together in a properly engineered setup for Anton, and also for me if I decide to build one of these things. In addition, my hope is that this thread can serve as a repository of what is involved in building such a project, as well as possibly documenting such a build as well.

Best Regards

 

Point taken on the pistons. I think that we will need to figure out the camshaft and ignition relationships as well as peak pressures in the cylinder, and overlay the compressor map to see what amount of air will be flowing through the system.

I believe the stock pistons are cast units, and may be a weaker part than a forged unit. However, some hyperutectic bits may be adequate if the peak pressures are managed properly. As I am sure you are aware of being able to double the power output without exceeding the peak pressure in the cylinder by more than 10%, due to the relationship of the flame front propagation and the piston going from TDC to >90 degrees while the controlled explosion pushes the piston down.. (We also should look at the dynamic compression to get this picture as well..)

As such, the key is detonation control, while keeping the mass flow of air up and temperature low to increase the efficiency of the system as a whole. That way, we can make more power with less pressure and less heat in the air charge.

Point taken on the oiling, as I was not aware of the oiling issue. However, increased oil cooling can probably be as simple as a thermostatically controlled Setrab secondary cooler, or replacing the stock cooler with a larger water based unit to match the heat output load of the engine. (I think from memory, the heatload was 742 watts/hp, but a temp of the oil lines can be datalogged and see if things are out of bounds etc..).

Has the oiling issue you have found in the Aston V12 been related to capacity, or thermal inefficiency? What about the pump, do you know of any issues with the stock oil pump? In my brief glance in the WSM, I noted in the WSM that the mains are priority oiling, and there are squirters for the pistons and some splash for cams and chains etc. However, I will recheck to be sure, and see if I note anything out of bounds etc.

I remember coming across some literature about capacity, and an FSA being issued to change the dipstick and add an additional quart of oil to keep things happy in the engine. Of course, we could go off the deep end and put in a 5 stage dry sump unit, but I believe this thread is mostly about a streetable build with about 800 CHP... Although, a full on AMR DB9R tub with full cage and fuel cells and a nice Pectel MQ15 to control everything does sound appealing..!! LOL

Also, what about the cooling system (radiator) do you know what the rating is or if there are issues with the coolant flow creating hot spots in the heads?

Best Regards,

 

The Vanquish had a few... what did the factory refer to them as.... oh yeah "Thermal Events" originating from the engine bay/exhaust system heat.

I'm intrigued because I have had some interest in developing a power kit for these cars like the ones we have for the Gaydon-era V12's. And I believe that removing the catalysts from the engine bay entirely should help substantially, but I'm also loathe to do it without the properly controlled environment because of the past history with these cars.


Still, a 600+ BHP Vanquish would be awesome!

 

Stuart,

Have you done any ceramic coatings on the headers you make and additional Mylar blanketing and a before and after comparison of temps with a heat gun?

This has proven effective in reducing temps in some other applications I have done. I have never tried it in an AM engine bay, but maybe it might help??

In the marine applications the entire exhaust is water jacketed and you can almost touch the manifolds..

Just a thought....

A Vanquish 600 would be keeping in line with the old V600 twin supercharged Virage...

 

The 044 pumps are great, I've used them a lot at the shop. They can piggyback off your intank to provide 2 pumps. Just leave the intank and put the 044 inline. That will boost pressure and flow. We built in failsafe's too incase of a fuze failure or loss of pressure/flow. It would cut boost and save the motor.

I've already said this once, I'll do it again. I would not turbo the V12 without first doing at a min of drop in pistons/rods. Pistons I wouldn't take over 600bhp.

The V12 doesn't have a low oil light. Most of the oil problems come from people running the motor below the min level. Also if you have increased heat on the piston, your top ring land may fail causing you to burn oil and thus running below the min and seizing the motor.

 

Yes to ceramics, no to blanketing.


We did measure temps on the primaries on OEM manifolds versus our coated headers and the temperatures were substantially lower. You can also tell the difference because you can take a hot car that has just been run up and down the street and put the back of your hand next to the primary, just a couple of cm away and you barely feel any heat.


Compared to the OEM, where you could hardly get an arm into the engine bay. This was on a 2005 DB9.

So I'm pretty confident we could execute, but due to the past history with the Vanquish I would be very, very careful and I wouldn't want to send out a 'test' part to someone unless I had absolute confidence in the installers and the test environment.

 

I agree on the piston upgrade! I lost top ring lands on two of the pistons on my viper. Luckily the broken parts got sucked through the valves and out the exhaust pipes so we only had to do minor head work repair and swap out for new forged pistons and rods. Nothing that i was expecting to deal with but knew it could have been a possibility. Even though plenty of gen3 Viper guys run 650rwhp on the stock bottom end, mine didnt hold. In the end I was able to up the boost and get more power We went from about 650rwhp to 850rwhp on 91 octane with a conservative tune