Ok, so it's been on a few people's mind, so hopefully I am encouraging a healthy discussion of ideas and what it will take to do such a project.

Some options I think that may enable this are:

Remap the existing ECUs

Piggyback slave ECU

ECU replacement

The intercoolers can be Laminova units or a Behr core, or maybe a BELL unit. However, my preference is for the Laminova units as the can package in a small space.

Garrett GT3582R's are fully capable of fitting, or even a smaller unit with an internal waste gate should be capable of 700+ hp on the low and 1200 on the high side.

One could remove the multiple cats and set one high flow cat per bank and mount pre and post lambda sensors if keeping the stock ECU or a piggyback unit. There is space for two turbos one on each side of the headers and cats are replaced.

A water tank can go in the rear, trunk, or behind a body panel and an IC pump installed with ease. A decent radiator can be plumbed in front of the AC condenser or offset for efficiency to keep the AWIC circuit cool.

Other than the fuel and ignition map reprogram, and changing injectors for new power requirements, the hard part will be the traction control as the car will have new limits.

This is just an idea to get the thread moved from the GT thread where I made some comments after someone brought it up.

I can post more technically boring details if you lot wish, and there is interest.

Best Regards

 

Richard it was great chatting with you earlier, lets get this thread going! You've answered a lot of my questions, but i have a few more.

Going with a older Vanquish S manifold, I assume this part will be a direct bolt on and we would be choosing this because the throttle boddies are right over the exhaust manifolds which would be much easier to plumb?

You mentioned building the intercooler in to the manifold. Can you elaborate on that.

Seems like fab of the manifolds and turbo placement is the easiest part of the build. The tougher decision would be to either run a piggyback or go stand alone all together. My concern with a stand alone is would a piggy back system be adequate or will it be a glitchy issue. As im not familiar with the Aston ECU, I'm not sure how the system will accept a piggy back.

Do we have any sponsors on here that would help tackle the ECU issue if this project comes to fruition?

Please post technical and boring stuff!!!

 

Don't you have to reduce the compression when fitting a Turbo?

Cheers

Christian

 

I'd love to see this happen! My initial concerns are:

Where are you going to put the turbos? The GT35/40 units are rather large, and require large plumbing for all the air they can move. Packaging is going to be extremely tight!
Of course the opposite problem is also there: Go to small and the turbos become bottlenecks that choke your top end.

You could do something like the Corvette ZR1, or maybe the current M5.

Of all the challenges for a project like this, compression is probably the least of their concerns. You can "easily" change compression by changing gaskets and pistons, for example.

 

The only way this makes any sense (if that) is if you go with the guys who have the rear mount twin turbos and use a very mild boost to get you a 15% power boost or so. Leave compression alone and maybe you can even leave the ECU/fuel delivery alone. Packaging will be so much simpler. The stuff you guys are discussing is just so much pie in the sky for an Aston.

 

Hi Anton,

Great to chat with you as well..

Yes, The Vanquish/S manifold will bolt up to the DBS/9 heads. The reason is the shape of the plenum and the proximity of the throttle bodies to the turbochargers. (Less piping with less turns means less pressure drop and less restriction in the system to overcome)

Yes, the turbocharger itself is not very challenging to install, it is the reprogramming of the ECU that is tricky, as you will need someone who understands the relationships and functions with other modules on the CAN BUS. That specifically is the issue. (Think traction control, ABS etc..) The ECU fuel and ignition tables are pretty easy. My guess the tables are probably 16X16 or maybe 16X20, so not too bad. (My Motec M880 is 21X40 with much more granularity.)

Any ECU can accept a piggyback. It depends on if you know the relationships of the other modules on a car with a CAN BUS. The reason is that all the modules now talk to each other, and you need to know which ones do so you can intercept the message if you have to. (In the days before CAN BUS architecture, this was much easier to do, as it was just a bunch of wires to trace..)

As far as sponsors, I believe Mike at Bamford Rose used to work for Aston, and Stuart at Velocity was able to program the ECU using some Ford tools to dig into the embedded code. The ECU's are basically a couple FORD units, and are not iridium or unobtanium etc.. Aston is famous for using other manufacturers stuff and piecing it together. In any event, the ECU was from the FORD ownership era, so it makes perfect sense to me. Heck, the engine is made in a FORD plant in Cologne Germany, even if Cosworth tweaked the heads... If that pisses some people off, not my problem, just stating the facts. Personally, I don't care, and it's a perfectly good engine.

I have not spoken to Mike, or Stuart about ECU reprogramming, so feel free to reach out to one or both.. As I mentioned prior, I am happy to help you design the system, with all of my design reasoning and explanations being able to be supported with scientific factual data and the engineering community. However, I do not have the time to build this for you, as I am too deep in projects and have a business to run.

Here are pictures of the Intercooled system I designed and am currently building for a V8. The little blue boxes contain the Laminova intercooler cores I mention. I took a little while to design, as there are too many minor details that are there that only a professional race grade engineer may see. Please don't ask me to explain all of it, although I will do my best to answer all questions in plain english.

In the Aston application, the main plenum of the Vanquish plenum would be split vertically, and the little bule boxes would be sandwiched by the cut plenum. Instead of 3 cores, it would be 2 cores vertical, and 2 cores lengthwise. Each core is good for cooling 150-200HP of airflow with the correct amount of water flow through the core. The cores are 32mm wide to give you a visual scale.

You do not need to worry about static compression unless you do not account for the thermodynamic effects of the air charge and the effect of the dynamic compression in the engine. The heat from forced induction comes from compressing the air, nothing else. Boost numbers alone is not important, as you can make more power with less pressure if you can move more air. The reason is you have a denser air mass, and the Lambda we all read about is mass X or air and mass Y of fuel at a certain ratio with a spark to get combustion.

Forget about just how much boost are you running. This is antiquated thinking, and things have moved along as we now have better understanding of the inside the chamber events of the engine. Compression is DBS/10:1 and DB9/9.5:1 I believe, but can recheck the manuals to confirm. This is perfectly acceptable to turbocharge/supercharge/twin charge (forced induction of any kind) an engine. BUT YOU NEED TO CONTROL THE CHARGE TEMPERATURE AND REQUIRED FUELING....!

Ok, I have to run now, but I will be back later in the afternoon when I have a chance to escape meetings etc.. Keep asking, and I will do my best to answer in a clear and concise manner.

Best Regards

 

I think the compression will be ok, my concern would be the head gaskets

 

So if I'm looking at your design correctly, airflow is coming from the turbos, into the central box, up into the wide flat plenum, then down through the intercoolers?

If that's correct, I'm seeing a number of fasteners within the wide flat plenum. Or is that plenum a two-piece unit (lower portion is one piece, it bolts on, then you bolt on the top half of the plenum)?

So installation would be:
1) bolt lower manifolds to intercooler cores
2) bolt those onto engine
3) install fuel injectors and rails
4) bolt central inlet box to lower plate of the upper plenum
5) bolt lower plate (with inlet box) to intercooler cores
6) install top half of upper plenum

 

This is what I like to see. I'm owned turbo cars for 10+ years and have been racing and building custom turbo parts since I could remember. Compression isn't that big of a problem on the AM11. I ran 25psi (93 Oct) and 38psi (E85) on a Dynamic Compression of 10.5:1 on my last car with a HTA3586 (a bit larger than the 3582 you mentioned). Dynamic compression is the important number, not static compression. MRY is very much correct in the fact that flow, chamber design, port design and even CAMs change the way dynamic compression is measured/effects performance. Just because a car has a static compression (piston) of 9.5:1 doesn't mean the REAL compression is actually that. I don't care about static compression.

A MoTec ECU should be able to run the AM11. I'm not a MoTec guy, I've done mostly OpenSource, AEM, or ProEFI so someone this a vast amount of experience with MoTec would better be able to explain the load/cells/inputs it can handle. If there were to be a Twin Turbo setup built, I would 100% say stand alone, not piggy back or flash/opensource. Also, I know the AM11 doesn't have a knock sensor on the Vantage pre S. I don't know much about the DB9/DBS in that regard, but assuming the same is true. Some will tell you running a turbo car without a knock sensor is asking for trouble, but its been done for decades (safely) before knock sensors were ever introduced. A good tuner can identify Ping/Det while tuning without a knock sensor.

Talking about IC issues. There are a few different options, and it is possible to not have a IC and be totally fine. Look at the old DSMs, they never had a FMIC from the factory and I can name a lot of other cars too that are setup in the same manner. If boost pressure doesn't go very high, you can get away without an intercooler because the compressed air isn't dangerously high. Now this may not be preferred, but it is possible. The larger the turbo the more efficient it will be and less need for a robust cooling system. Go look up Under Ground Racing if you haven't heard of them. They do twin turbo kits for Ferrari/Lambo. Those are V8/V10 and low boost they can make 700+whp with ease, but they do incorporate an air to water IC. They use PTE turbos, mostly 6262s and make that power on low boost. I would much rather do conventional tank Air to Water setup than a plenum intercooler setup. Engines get hot and you are practically making a top mount IC setup and the transient heat that transfers from the head to the IC would be undesired even with water - I wouldn't personally want this setup. 1) Water once it gets hot is very hard to cool down. 2) This is likely the most expensive setup in terms of cooling. I think a low boost twin 3586 or 3794 might be able to get away with no intercooler and easily make 700+whp. If IAT raise above the threshold, water injection would be the simplest form of cooling and only cost a few hundred bucks.

The weak point for the AM11 would be Rods then Pistons. I would do a simple Rod/Piston drop in or motor refresh with larger bearings (always a good idea with turbo cars to help with increased bearing loads). The head has a lot of work that can be done and pairing that with a set of custom high lift/duration/ramp rate cams, you could get an easy 50-75+ hp just from the head work (depending on how crazy you get, but I would max out the VE of the head on a flow bench). It is good/safe horsepower and will actually help you run more boost safely on a turbo setup than the stock head/cams. Long story short, I personally believe that 700whp is easily achievable without a lot of special work pending the ECU/injectors can be solved.

I should probably go back to work.

Mike

 

I guess the next big issue would be, what is the point of 700+whp car if you can't get any traction? I doubt you would have traction with 305-315R compound tires even in 3rd. I mean it would be sick to say you have a twin charge V12 but sad to see a Honda Civic beat you to 100mph. I'm going to try and stuff the largest tire I can in the rear without modifications and it looks like the largest may be 315s. Maybe with some minor modifications we may be able to get a 345 under the rear fender? I just have no idea...

I'm definitely interested in this project. I'm new to the Aston so I'm still learning.

Mike

 

Phenolic spacers can help solve this problem. Spacer thickness needs to be taken into account while designing the new manifolds. I ran them on my STi and they made a noticeable difference in intake manifold temps by preventing heat soak from engine to manifold. Thickness for those runs 3mm or 8mm (TMIC or FMIC, respectively, for fitment), but since this would be a custom application, any thickness can be spec'd to fit the design.

Also consider ceramic coating the manifolds to prevent under-hood temps from heating the manifolds. If possible, coat the outsides of the intercooler cores - lots of people use coating or heat-shielding tape. Coating would give a more OEM look as the tape is rather obvious.

 

I was about to run a 13.5" wheel with a 375 tire. I measuring out the Tthere's enough room to run a 14" wide tire with the proper offset of your rim. We opted out to build a 12.5 instead and run a 325 which is 13" worth of tire because the 375s are discontinued. Im running a 21" wheel so a 345 wasn't an option but it would be for a 20". There is a 355 but the sidewall is way to tall as my car is lowered. There is plenty of room to fit something very wide in the db9/S application. Im sure the vantage platform can handle the same widths.

As far as HP. I want a TTV12 just to have a TTV12 ASTON. I know i can pick up an AMG platform and call it a day but I love my ASTON and I love to mod. I had two 1khp+ vipers and did nothing but terrorize the streets in them. The most fun a grown man could have. To each is own.
Believe it or not you learn to drive a 1000hp on the street and keep your wheel spin to a minimum. Its all about knowing your car and knowing how to handle that type of power.

 

All great info guys!

 

MRY i love the idea of the top mount inter-cooler set up built in to the intake manifold but im having a hard time imagining of what you are describing. Maybe a quick pencil sketch?

 

Two things we are leaving out are the transmission and rear end. How strong are these components?