Somehow the Tesla story reminded me about the solar power story that went from boom to bust in about 5-6 years. It's a nice story of renewal energy and new players in the energy market trying to play along side the big boys. Stock prices went sky high after 2-3 years. Even the big gas and oil invested into it, pocket change for them and it's called hedging.

Where are they now?

 

If every endeavor stopped at a failing there would be no progress in anything. There are abuses and failures in every type of business. Gas/oil companies are not immune to this. The one example you have cited is not ample reason to be suspect of every and all alternative fuel ideas or enterprises. The Tesla is in production, it is viable for a large segment and chances are it will only improve.

 

The way Motor Trend describes PDCC on the track really has me second guessing it. I was looking only for cars with it, and I plan on tracking the car.

 

I'm not familiar with Tesla cars or have any interest on it but I was interested in the company stock. Spent 2 weeks studying it and decided that it will not be the stock I'm going to invest. It seemed that the more cars they sell, the worst their margin will become. EPS being negative since IPO. It may be a great car but unless there are someone willing to back them up financially with such abysmal financial, they will run out of cash soon.

 

I like Motor Trends initial assessment form earlier this year:

Porsche 991 Named 2012 Motor Trend Best Driver’s Car.

 

I'll second that "HUH?" From HotHonda.

The first Tesla showroom in the world opened in LA over 2 years ago at Santa Monica Blvd & Sepulveda. That is now the primary service center for SoCal and there are 3 showrooms (Santa Monica, Topanga, Newport Beach).

http://www.teslamotors.com/locations

The COTY (noteworthy) vs Drivers Car (sum of performance) awards has already been covered. I believe last year COTY was the Passat, Volt before that. 991s won drivers car this year by a blowout, 458 last year (gt3rs 3rd), cayman in 09 (think they skipped 10)

 

IMHO MT COTY is political BS comparison with no real value... Look at the previous winners...

 

The interesting thing that ChuckJ is pointing out is that Motor Trend thinks the Carrera is better than the Carrera S ("...nearly everyone preferred the base 911 to the Carrera S"). In their Figure Eight and Braking tests, a plain vanilla Carrera (manual, no Sport Chrono or anything else) is as good or better than a fully loaded Carrera S (PDCC, PTV, PASM, PDK, etc):
Braking 60-0mph: Carrera 98ft, Carrera S 101ft
Figure Eight: Carrera 24.0s@0.86g, Carrera S 24.0@0.85g

Of course, the Carrera S accelerates faster than the Carrera but without PDK + Sport Chrono in the latter, it's more than simply the 50hp difference at work.

From the magazine: "...the test team pointed fingers at the hydraulic active anti-roll bar system (PDCC) for generating excessive understeer even under mild lift-throttle conditions."

 

Hi!

I'm happy that I ordered my C4S without PDCC ... even more understeer on an all-wheel-drive car .... brrrrrr


Best
Greg

 

I'm a little hesitant to comment about base model Carreras, with which I've had limited experience, and I'll definitely stay out of the Tesla debate. A smart engineer doesn't 'do' politics. But as for the S models of Carrera, I can contribute to that discussion at least. I have tracked a 997S and a 991S. The 991S is more fun, and it does not understeer. Not at all the way I drive it, but we do have to allow for Porsche's use of 'straddle' in their designs to accommodate expert drivers without killing casual owners. (A sound goal I suppose.) I would say that driven ... casually... a 991S still would have less than twenty percent of the understeer found in the 997S.

Now about that understeer even under "mild lift-throttle conditions". I didn't want PDCC on my car and ordered it with only the usual performance options, but it sounds like they are trying to balance the car on throttle and not succeeding as easily as is usual. I haven't time to read the article, but I can guess what is happening in those conditions. Porsche has been concerned since about 1975 with what came to be called the Ferraria effect. (Not related to Enzo Ferrari so far as I know. Probably some dynamicist.) It's well known to racing drivers and most expert road drivers. At high lateral loads, thrust from the rear wheels is required to counter the drag, and our cars are set up for that. That thrust keeps the car balanced. We use throttle variations instead of steering wheel movement on a sustained corner. But dropping the thrust completely causes a significant weight transfer forward. Absent suspension settings that compensate by adapting the contact patch, the result is lower clamping pressure in the rear and increased in the front. If the weight transfer is accompanied by body pitch, the suspension may create undesirable changes in the rear contact patch. (Consider 'jacking' in the swing axle cars.) That exacerbates the situation rapidly.

That phenomenon is what causes mid-seventies 911 S models to need expert attention near the limit. Back out of a corner and you're facing backward literally. Curing that tendency has been the subject of complex suspension analyses and a few witch doctor treatments (like the weighted front bumpers). I surmise that the PDCC actions that balance the car also dampen even the desirable early Ferraria effects that let us throttle steer in corners. What we do normally probably is changing the slip angles at the rear enough to justify the term 'oversteer' being applied, so getting rid of that probably would feel like understeer even if technically it was only neutral behavior achieved by computer control. I'd have to drive an example to say anything without the "maybes" and "might be"s sprinkled through the sentence.

My 991S does not exhibit extreme Ferraria. I doubt any unmodified Porsche of the last ten years would do that. It does handle like a race car in terms of balancing on the throttle and changing direction nimbly. It has PASM responses similar to the full-time PDCC actions that will kick in if PSM is activated. They are intended to keep an essentially neutral car from inducing a Ferrarria spin. Since I've never seen PSM activate on one of my own laps, I consider that 'straddle' feature a decent trade-off for the agile handling the 991S has the rest of the time. I'm sure people who do startle PSM into action are happy for the help preventing a snap spin.

The PDCC sounds like an overcompensation at worst, and most likely a change in driving feel rather than true understeer like we tolerate in our 997 models all the time. It makes me wonder how 'significant' this understeer was and whether their drivers made such abrupt control movements that PSM did indeed kick in to save their butts. But that's probably unfair. A change in feel is more likely, and I have to say its a change I didn't want. That's why I don't have PDCC.

Since it is an option, not a feature, on either new Carrera, it is properly a criticism of the PDCC feature, not either type of Carrera.

Bottom line: Don't order PDCC if you're concerned about handling feel, but we've known that since the early reviews. Do order it if you want the fastest times on high speed tracks. The loss of feel is balanced by increased grip at the limits.

Gary, old enough to prefer fun to lap times

 

Yep hepmonk, this was my point and I'm interested if people that have PDCC equipped cars or people who have extensively driven them think that PDCC causes under-steer. I do assume that a car that has all the electronic equipment to help cornering would have an artificial feel because by definition it is different than the cars we are used to driving without it, but it is really hard to believe that the electronics would hurt figure 8, and other performance measures.

ChuckJ

 

In my experience, the most noticeable advantage of PDCC on the track is not in simple turns or sweepers (though certainly one is aware of the flatness) but rather in the chicanes. A non-PDCC car has to deal with the consecutive lateral transfers of weight whereas in a PDCC car that effect feels much more neutralized.
If I'm right about that, then a figure 8 or skidpad doesn't best capture what PDCC is about.

 

I have pdcc and just state what I have noticed.

I think that people are labelling a "sesnsation" that they are not used to as "understeer". It is not neccessarily understeering. let me try to explain from my non technical perspective.

Imo pdcc does require a slight change in driver response/style. It's about longer term experience and knowing what the car and system are capable of. I have been amazed at the levels of traction a pdcc equiped 991S has over and above the non pdcc 991S cars i have driven on a track.

Yes PDCC changes the experience a little but its an evolutionary difference which in my opinion is a driving enhancement which has led to a change in my driving characteristics a little. Over time I've built up my confidence in the system and now feel really good with it and know its nuances.

IMO, there is sometimes a brief feeling of understeer which does not have to mean the car is understeering...(very difficult to explain) but if you drive through it and let the system work it through, the road holding will amaze. I have now gotten used to it and know what to expect and am entirely comfortable with pdcc.

Every generation of 911 and its technical addons provide for something different and the 991 and PDCC is no different. For me the reason for pdcc was ultimately about enhanced safety and performance. IMO handling has not been compromised and the reviewers are misinterpreting their pdcc experience as "understeer".

Each to their own. Try if you can...then buy if you want

 

Easy to say. But by your own admission, it took getting used to (a different way to handle a car).

I've read many, many, many times - where people say,"I've driven 'x' number laps around 'y' track in previous 911's, and 'z' car sucks." - after about 3 laps.

I completely agree that new technology isn't designed to be crap, and most likely improves performance/experience, etc..., doesn't mean it gets a fair chance during it's debut.

So how do you 'try' it before buying? Last I heard, dealers don't exactly give 2 month test-drives, with a couple weekends at an HPDE.

(There is the Porsche driving event, though)

 

I think the questions is about PDDC. In my opinion it would make the handling a little artificial. I am surprised that it increases understeer. I personally did not order PDDC on my CS. I think I saw a video from motorTrend comparing the non-PDDC CS with a PDDC and the like the non-PDDC better....