Low end torque - Please?
 

Ok,
Almost 2 years and I still love the car. I read the thread on the Power Kit and it may not be a rip off because it is what it says, but it does not seem to be a good value. I don't need more horsepower - I can't use what I have now. But low end torque, that I could use - and would pay for. Is there anything that will not kill the engine and what is left of my warrantee in the long run, and short run, respectively?

What about a set of sport headers or an x-pipe? I haven't seen many customer dyno sheets around, but it seems like mid-range torque may see a gain with some exhaust modifications.


Otherwise, I don't think you can do much. A tune may also increase torque, but you may or may not have warranty issues if your dealer SA is a PITA.

AG,


Here's a Fabspeed dyno sheet showing the potential gains from their x-pipe race exhaust. Before anyone posts the usual "unrealistic gains" comment, I'm not claiming that these are typical/realistic numbers, as I have absolutely no way of confirming it.


I may dyno my car with PSE before/after my CargraphicTS x-pipe installation to see if we do gain anything.


Anyway, here it is...


https://www.fabspeed.com/dyno127.html


https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ine=1390278616

I have had the Fabspeed headers but did not dyno my car. Yes there is some mid range (and sound) improvement but you are probably looking for something that would make a bigger difference. My bet is that you would need a good 30-40 ft.lbs to be satisfied if you are looking for more low end torque... and I am not sure that incremental steps (headers, tune, exhaust...) will get you there on a naturally aspirated engine.
You can still go down this route and drive in Sport mode all the time.

The only thing that will give the low end torque, that you want, is a Forced Induction upgrade.
I believe someone will make a supercharger kit soon enough.
We will need it, with the C7 Z around the corner.

If I want to get the extra performance more low end torque would provide I just drive in a lower gear at higher RPM's to get the same performance by using the horsepower.

Excellent point....problem solved. Also, this engine revs so freely that you're in the meat of the torque band; kickdown gets you there in a hurry.

Especially as the OP has PDK which means that switching gears to stay in the mid to high rpm range is quick and easy.

I think this ^^ is the only feasible solution.

I can't imagine any rational person modifying the 991 engine with forced induction (cost, warranty, downtime, installation risk, longevity risk, availability of 997 or 991TT...)

Re dyno graphs produced by the tuners on their own products without any independent verification, don't even get me started...

Exactly, which was the point of including my disclaimer. I'd love to see some member dyno charts from their own experience.


AG, I'm just curious... in what situations do you feel the need for more torque? Especially being PDK, a quick squeeze of the gas pedal should yield a downshift or two, giving you the pick-up pace you need. I had a base Panamera over the weekened with PDK, and I found absolutely no lack of torque for daily driving, even though the transmission would shift into 4th or 5th gear seconds after driving away from a stoplight.

I do not mean to respond on behalf of AG, but I can imagine getting on the highway at 50mph and below 2,000rpm and taking time to blend into the traffic.
Two clicks on the left paddle and you would be above the speed limit on the left lane in a couple of seconds though.
But sometimes, driving back from the office at 8PM with a headache, you are not in the mood for stepping on it and would prefer a torquey daily driver. But it does not happen too often.

This reminds me of the old commercial (especially the part with the corporate exec getting in his 'getaway' car):

I wonder if there is even enough room back there for a turbo / supercharger. They had to widen the Turbo a couple inches beyond just the stock expanded AWD hips to fit the intercoolers and turbo in.

Point taken. But with PDK, as you correctly pointed out, a couple of downshifts would provide you with the necessary power to pass traffic. Even in auto, you could downshift and get moving with a little extra throttle. That's the experience I had with the Panamera PDK: even though it was underpowered compared to our 991S, it was a breeze in traffic/passing on the highway.

Turbo, no way.
Superchargers are getting very compact to where they take about the same space as an intake manifold.
We still have the center radiator opening for a heat exchanger.

Perhaps it could it be done for what a Power Kit costs and give tripple the power of PK.

Until then, I can make do with a regular S.

I would love a TT with manual and no SC.
That would slice 6K off the price and be way more fun to drive.

More low rpm torque is the Turbo or a bigger engine.

I think changing to the new BMW M4 will satisfy your craving for more low end torque while providing similar power and handling characteristics to your 991. If you still want a 911, you must get a Turbo.

I like LunarX's suggestion of a supercharger/compressor better than a Turbo!

I absolutely agree with the OP. Low-end torque is missing from all of Porsche's n/a boxer engines.
The next gen, or maybe even the facelift will get downsized, turbocharged engines over the whole line-up (except GT3). Porsche has to, because of some EU environmental regulations and to meet EU6 requirements.

This is good and bad news... It adds more low end torque, but the downside will be that the engines won't rev as high and the sound will be not as nice as it is now. Another downside is the throttle respons. Although way better than previous generations in the 991TT(S), it still is not as good as a n/a 991.

So... Supercharger may be the right answer...? I have no idea if it is as efficient as a turbocharger. If I'm correct, a supercharger also doesn't block exhaust sound?

Suzy991 (iOS app)

Don't care about low end torque, but Suzy is right. Porsche will have to find a way to comply to the ever stricter rules :-(

And I for one don't want to see a turbo in every variant. Like Suzy said, gone is the sound, gone are the revs, gone is the throttle respons.

And while I'm certainly no expert, I think a supercharger/compressor could be an answer to the downsizing/legislation on one hand and to the call for a sporty driving experience on the other hand.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But I presume the SC/compressor can give more power, more torque than regular NA. But it has some tech advantages over a turbo too. It drives of the crank or pulley, so it's linear to the revs, so throttle respons should be ok, no turbo lags either. Has a nicer sound, from the system itself (SC whine instead of turbo airsuck) and from the fact that it doesn't consume/recycle exhaust gasses. SC makes probably less absolute bhp than a turbo, but a 911 was never about absolute power for me so ...

For me, if Porsch HAS to change. Make it a downsized flat six with a compressor.

I had a C6 Corvette with more low end torque than the car could handle and it was no where near as much fun as driving the 991. It was a lot less expensive, though.;)

ChuckJ

The 918 is built to solve all those issues, a bit pricey though.

It just needs a nice electric motor for the front wheels to deliver a powerfull instant 100Nm or more of RPM independent torque when you need it. The NA engine is just fine for everything else.

This is where it is heading. None of the disadvantages of either turbo or supercharger. Just makes sense.

Rainier

Thanks Rainier. Interesting perspective on how to keep N/A engines, address the emissions laws and add some low end torque. Only issue will be the weight of batteries but this can be addressed.

I think the Carrera TDI is just around the corner. Solves all your torque needs. hilarious

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ine=1390408495

You got that right. The larger amount of low end torque can work against you on the street; first and second gear were totally useless in my heavily modded C6 Z51 and my ZO6. I was forced to use MT drag radials on the street and still needed to feather the throttle in first gear.

The 991S Manual can be a terrific "red-light bandit" if you know how to drive the car.

I also should mention that some on this board who are complaining about Porsche's low-end torque don't even own a Porsche, and probably have never driven one. Just saying. ;)

porsche always seems to gear their cars a bit too tall. This has the effect of making them seem a little wimpy at the low revs.

It would be great if porsche just geared down a bit. I've heard a few pros such as Randy Pobst echo the same sentiments.....

That is happening right now.
Type "Graphene supercapacitors" into Google.

No crappy Lithium batteries needed. Technology is almost ready. In our case we just need extra energy during fast acceleration with the ability to recharge that energy very fast either from braking or via the engine when spare capacity is available (almost always).
So we are talking a KERS system. The Graphene battery would almost be tiny and weight not an issue.

Graphene batteries currently are around 1/3 to 1/2 the energy density of Lithium battery by weight but charge instant with a huge discharge current ability and almost unlimited lifetime (very little battery deterioration after many cycles). They are not chemical "batteries" but capacitors. This is simply crying for application in our 911. Seems there is no reason it could not be done now.

Rainier

Guys, this is a great discussion and thank you all. Where I miss torque is at a stop light. Getting of the line - getting to third gear, seems slow. Once there, I can just hit the magic PDK button to drop a gear and wow. But I have a mustang with a 4:10 gear (not a fair comparison I know). But even a light touch on the gas and without the tach doing much I am off. I miss that. In know it is a different car, a different driving experience, and that the likely answer is that I should not be such a you know what about hitting the gas harder at the light. But, I mostly drive in NJ and mostly on local roads and small highways, and, as it is JerZ, there is always a crowd. Since it is hard to go more than 40 because of traffic, lights, toll boths and the fuzz looking to up my tax rate a few hundred dollars at a time, big torque is more useful than a lot of ponies.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are in the wrong car for you. You can try to make it something it is not with mods and driving it in upper revs etc... or you can move on and trade it for something that suits you better. Since it's not a rush, go out and test drive some other makes. I truly believe we are in a golden age with a ton of great sports cars. The 991 is too expensive to not deliver what YOU want in a sports car.

I don't take it the wrong way and thanks for the comment. I actually like the drive of the 991 more than the mustang. I love my mustang but it is very one note. It is a good note! Driving down the shore with the top down on a warm summer night - it is wonderful. And I have loved them since I was a kid. I am not a kid anymore and I find that while I want to spice up the Porsche, I want to tone the mustang down - softer suspension (Ford racing upgrade), less aggressive exhaust (from the manifold back Ford racing exhaust), and 4:10 gear (might want to step back to something less).


But the Porsche drives very differently and I like it very much in the curves, in overall acceleration, in the feeling of confidence that if give. and from a style standpoint - well.


And NJ is not the best place for any type of car. Our weather stinks, our roads stink, there are too many cars, cops, deer, pedestrians, etc. No, If I cold get some low end torque, without going crazy and turning the car into something it isn't, and without shelling out for a Turbo, that would be great. If not, I will debate with myself for a while about the new Targa S, and likely just keep the fantastic car that I have.


Still, any ideas are welcome. Thanks all.

Akrapovic exhaust my friend!!

Sounded good, but most of the exhausts do - what does it really do for torque? I did not buy the PSE because the sound is not my thing - and you can hear the Mustang from several blocks away if I want that. Thanks for the direction though. I visited a few sites and it does sound great!

Chuck, I never owned one, but I drove a z06 and now I know why so many of them fish-tail off the line - there is a thing called too much torque and they found it. When you did it correctly, though, it was very exhilarating.


I was not looking for that, but just something to help with the first gear anemia.

AG,


If your problem is apparent during first-gear starts at traffic lights, you may not need extra "low-end" torque. You must have mentioned this, but do you drive in Sport or Sport Plus mode? If I don't activate either mode on my car, the car feels somewhat underpowered and anemic. A quick switch into Sport mode livens up the throttle response and the car takes off much quicker.


What if you purchased a tune to boost the torque and give you better throttle response?


For reference, I have a 2005 Mustang GT. The car was great, but was slow off the line and felt somewhat "dead" when taking off from traffic lights. An intake and a tune turned the car into a torque monster (all from a simple throttle remap and some extra torque/hp).


All you may need is a simple tune/throttle remap to give you the extra "oomph" you desire.

You sir, have good taste in cars! Yes, first gear was slow and third was not great either! Mine is a 2006 GT with a cold air intake, tune, Shelby breaks, exhaust, suspension, stabilizers and a 4:10 gear. It is a monster up to 60, in a straight line, on dry pavement- faster than my Porsche S - certainly under 4 seconds. But I went too far in the Mustang and it has great thrills but it is not as drivable.


I will likely try a tune and I am certainly open to simple add-ons like the intake for the Porsche. And, I will start driving in sport more. I almost never drive is sport plus. Where I do most of my driving, I would never get out of first gear!.


Thanks for the advice.


As for the rest of you, thanks for: 1) some very creative, if expensive and extensive solutions and 2) (Suzy) depressing me that the EU is going to mandate 4 cylinders or less in a few years. More reason to keep my v8 mustang, or even trade it in for one with the new 5.0 engine!

Well, the 991 doesn't live up. The modded Stang is too much. Loose them both. And get a stock C7 Z06 instead. Might be the ****tail of features you are looking for ?!

What about Sprint Booster? Would it create the perception of increased torque?

I will say that they seem to have done a nice job on the new vette and it is good to see some thought going into American cars again. But, alas, I had a 1983 Chevy Cavalier and when it broke, and was apparently unfixable to the best minds from Detroit, and I was told essentially tough toe nails, I said I would never own another Chevy, not ever.

First let me say Bravo. I just, for the first time, got to see a 911 in your color the other day. Stunning! Second, pardon my ignorance, but what is a sprint booster?

Anyone install Sprint Booster on a 991?