This is interesting. How did PCNA attack you?

How many times did you change the pads (front and rear)?

Did they comment on poor service history, driving style or something the car's computer pointed to?

 

OK I get you.

But why make a lot of panic in a 991 forum about issues you had with brakes on a 997 TTS?
First of all this is the regular 991 forum, not the Turbo forum and second, the brakes on the 991 Turbo S are different from the ones on the 997 Turbo S. It just doesn't make any sense.
The fact that this all is happening right after the bad publicity of Nick's video doesn't help either. (I refer to your forum postings, not your blog).
You said you did quite some tracking... Maybe you should have bought a 997 GT3 RS. The Turbo S is not a trackcar. If you track a lot, it's very well known that the ceramics can be a PITA, especially in terms of costs. nothing new...


I'm very sorry if I'm completely wrong, but there are too many things that show in the direction of trolling. I really hope I'm wrong though...

If you had posted your story in the 997 Turbo forums and made your story a bit more clear, it would have been a lot more credible if you ask me.

 

You should have replaced the rotors with used one if this is a lease. You can get a used set of PCCB rotors from a total loss vehicle for about $5000-6000 a set.

 

Just for my own education, could the more technically inclined answer a few questions?
· I don’t think heat resistance equates to greater durability. I would assume the breaks just get less hot under heavy use. Is this true?
· How long do these breaks generally last? I remember reading that the replacement is expensive and that it starts to become an issue after 10-15k miles. Is that for the pads and not the rotors? Do people usually get 50k miles out of the PCCB’s?
I does seem to me that the OP just drove the car aggressively and wore out a disposable item, but these were the questions that came to mind reading his story.

 

My thoughts and questions as well.

 

He had to have burnt out the rotors as well. The pads alone don't cost 10K. If you had everything checked out prior to track days, did the dealer not tell you that the pads were getting very thin/worn towards the end?

 

 

A few points:

1. Two weeks ago I didn't know this forum existed. I watched Nick's video, and saw in his experience with PCNA a much magnified one of my own, especially in his interaction with the "Customer Commitment Center" rep. So I found his forum post here and replied with my own message of support. From there I decided to add my own experience to the forum.

2. I average about 5 track days a year, and fewer than 10% of my miles are track miles. My driving is for daily enjoyment. A GT3 RS is completely the wrong car for my needs and the TTS has been ideal except for the failure of the ceramic rotors.

3. My purpose in the post is to alert prospective buyers of new Porsches not owners of existing cars. I assumed that they'll be reading the 991 forum. That's why I chose to post here.

4. The 991 brake diameters are larger than the 997. Otherwise, they are vulnerable to the same dangers as the 997, in my opinion.

5. Porsche, again in my opinion, does not adequately warn potential buyers of the pitfalls of PCCB. Nor are their salesmen knowledgeable in this matter. So if most buyers are like me and trust the literature and the sales reps, they could end up learning a painful lesson. Ergo my warning message.

6. People focus on the track miles but completely miss the fact that PTV is just as active on public roads. I drove 3-4000 miles on some very twisty and hilly roads which I believe contributed greatly to the brake failure. So I don't think that it's safe to assume that your rotors will last if you don't track your car.

 

The OP may be right that PTV may be hard on the brakes, but IMO the bottom line is that all brake components are consumables.

 

Then let me first make my apologies for thinking you were a troll. it just seemd to much of a coincidence and the story was kinda strange because you didn't point out that you were talking about a 997.

1. Good thing and welcome

2. Very understandable, however for track use it's known that PCCBs are a PITA. For road use they are okay and I don't think the average owner will have problems as quicly as you did. (Or at least... let's hope so! You never know for sure of course)

3. That is a good thing, but like I said, I don't think the average buyer will have the same problems. There are more people that last much longer with their PCCB, even on 997. The problem with extended use is well known and applies to other brands as well.

4. The material used, is also different as far as I'd understand (not 100% sure). Brakes are the same as on GT3 and/or 918.

5. Porsche doesn't warn you... that's right... Neither does any other brand. They want to sell. So do salepeople and very nice salespeople will maybe point it out, but then again... that's not Porsche to blame, but the sales people.
Ferrari sales people won't warn you either...

6. Not sure about that. I know someone with a 997 TTS that has done 70,000km with his car and his brakes are still fine.
I don't have experience with the brakes myself, so I can't comment on that really. I do have PTV and as far as I know there's no unusual wear (steel brakes). However, my car only has done about 19,000km

 

Thank you for the apology. That was very gracious of you. There are no hard feelings on my end.

I think that brake temperature sensors at minimum, possibly coupled with an on/off switch for PTV, could have helped me avoid the problem. Cars have temp sensors on the engine precisely to avoid expensive damage. It's not worth it for steel brakes that cost just a few hundred dollars to replace. But when it costs $20K to replace all four ceramic rotors, I think that it's time to rethink the issue.

For what it's worth, Ferrari has brake temp sensors, so it's technically feasible.

 

Yes, it was the rotors that made up over $8K of the cost. No, the dealer inspected the pads and pronounced them fine (about 70% wear remaining, if I recall correctly.)

 

Just wondering out loud, if the dealer actually checked the pads each time like they said. Call this the skeptical side of me...

 

Ok, so I'm sorry I jumped your case and appreciate your willingness to explain yourself.

As I've been educating and reading myself on this issue, I can see that the entire PCCB (or carbon brakes) is sort of a can of worms... It seems that there is definitely a proclivity to damaging them if they aren't used correctly. And by nature they are something that work well right up until the time they are overheated and then subsequently damaged. there really isn't a warning by virtue of fading that you get with traditional brakes that tells you to back off on them..

In your case, it would seem relatively apparent that the brakes were overheated, the question is if it was because of some design flaw, part failure or simply you fried them while tracking..

I think from the arguments you are making that you believe it isn't the result of your tracking activity or technique, rather you believe it is because of PTV or some flaw related to PTV in conjunction with PCCB when simply road driving in conditions where PTV tends to be continuously activated..

I think you do bring up good points, that a temperature monitoring system of some sort would be beneficial give the lack of driver feedback. (if nothing else it gives the OEM something to dump and see what happened when a failure does occur). Although if there is an implication that the brakes or PTV should somehow automatically back off to preserve themselves as temperatures rise that in itself becomes a safety issue when PTV or some other automatic system causes unexpected behavior. Brakes in deed are consumables (although expensive ones I agree).

I think where my engineering logic might diverge a bit from yours is it would seem a much more likely conclusion that your damage occurred from simply overheating.. as opposed to a design flaw or limitation due to PTV during normal driving..

But then again, it is conceivable that your particular street driving routes and in combination with PTV being continuously active could be some kind of condition the PCCB's don't handle well. But gut feel engineering feel is that the amount of background braking activity imparted by PTV even when operating on a continuous windy zig zag road would be orders of magnitude less than what you would see in a track oriented scenario. It just doesn't seem all that plausible.. Although I wasn't entirely clear if your failure was limited to just the rear brakes or the front as well.

But if PTV has the ability to overheat brakes, it would seem that non CCB brakes on PTV equipped 911's would be overheating as well in similar conditions. So it would be interesting to understand if that is something that has occurring.. It would be interesting to go out to drive on the roads you frequent, limit your braking and see what happens to your brake temperatures which would be influenced by PTV.

I do think your subject is definitely a good discussion as it brings up some interesting issues. I'm not sure I'm convinced that CCB's are bad or necessarily flawed, but it does indicate that there are definitely use conditions where they aren't necessarily ideal and apparently become an expensive consumable.

But your efforts do indicate that CCB's aren't simply bigger better brakes which for the most part is what most of us previously assumed. And you are probably on the right track when you question how they market them. Maybe this is an area where they could do a better job in educating potential buyers given there are some inherently counter intuitive characteristics.

I for one considered them, (albeit not really understanding them) just bigger better brakes.. but said no just because it seemed unnecessary for street driving coupled with the ridiculous price. So I think my personal take away from this is not necessarily that there are design flaws (there could) but that PCCB's aren't worth the trouble..

So I appreciate your post in that I can see there is really little value of PCCB to most folks..

 

Ok, that made me laugh so hard I cried! Thanks HHS, I needed that.