991 base for the City?
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Guys, thx for all the meaningful posts..my sincere gratitude to all of you for providing and typing out all your knowledge. Reading everything here..I'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps I should go with the 981 instead of the 991 for my first foray into the Porsche world..It seems more "forgiving". I drove it on the track and I was very scared so I cannot imagine the experience on the 991 with tail swinging out..Not to mention it's a little lighter on the wallet
I hope I didnt waste your time contributing to this thread..
I hope I didnt waste your time contributing to this thread..
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You can't make a wrong decision. The 981 and the 991 are great in all variants.
I came from a 987 and fully planned to buy a 981. But one day while test driving Caymans I drove a 991. I was blown away. It was so much quieter and refined with a roomier interior and better ride quality than the Caymans I had driven or any 911 variation previously produced. It is an extremely comfortable and relaxed daily driver. But push a few buttons and a it turns into an amazingly capable track monster, if that's what you want.
Also, about the track, I have several years experience in a Cayman S and it's wonderful, of course. But the 991 is absolutely amazing in its own right. While dynamically different than the Cayman the 991 Carrera is not 'tail happy' at all. You have to really do something stupid to break that car loose. And something many people forget, or are unfamiliar with is that mid-engined cars, while inherently well balanced, have issues, too. In a Cayman if you reach beyond the grip level in a corner it will spin very, very quickly and almost without notice. It can be very difficult to recover. Carreras exhibit much more feel just prior to losing grip and it is easier to manage. Plus the 991 is far more stable than any earlier 911. Most importantly, it's a mute point for daily driving. I just didn't want you to think a 991 was "scary" in any way based on your track comments.
In the end I turned my pockets inside out and went for the more expensive 991. For me it was the absolute right decision and I have no regrets. Do what I did and test drive both versions a lot. As I said you can't go wrong. And whatever you get...send us pictures!
My ride:
I came from a 987 and fully planned to buy a 981. But one day while test driving Caymans I drove a 991. I was blown away. It was so much quieter and refined with a roomier interior and better ride quality than the Caymans I had driven or any 911 variation previously produced. It is an extremely comfortable and relaxed daily driver. But push a few buttons and a it turns into an amazingly capable track monster, if that's what you want.
Also, about the track, I have several years experience in a Cayman S and it's wonderful, of course. But the 991 is absolutely amazing in its own right. While dynamically different than the Cayman the 991 Carrera is not 'tail happy' at all. You have to really do something stupid to break that car loose. And something many people forget, or are unfamiliar with is that mid-engined cars, while inherently well balanced, have issues, too. In a Cayman if you reach beyond the grip level in a corner it will spin very, very quickly and almost without notice. It can be very difficult to recover. Carreras exhibit much more feel just prior to losing grip and it is easier to manage. Plus the 991 is far more stable than any earlier 911. Most importantly, it's a mute point for daily driving. I just didn't want you to think a 991 was "scary" in any way based on your track comments.
In the end I turned my pockets inside out and went for the more expensive 991. For me it was the absolute right decision and I have no regrets. Do what I did and test drive both versions a lot. As I said you can't go wrong. And whatever you get...send us pictures!
My ride:
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It was the 981 - video if your interested..me and bro are real newbies on a track..it was more meant for ourselves
Thx Brad...great comments and that was funny
Beautiful pics!
Beautiful pics!
Last edited by 540Oak; Aug 9, 2014 at 02:04 AM.
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Best attributes:
- no headlight washer warts
- no satellite radio wart
- no sunroof lines
- black calipers
Last edited by Founder; Aug 9, 2014 at 02:35 AM.
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You can't go wrong with either car but for what it's worth, the 991 is actually less "scary" than the 981 in my opinion. And the 991 is actually more forgiving for the reasons in my long-*** post. Thought I'd just reiterate that before you pull the trigger.
I tried to find an online version of a Car Magazine article I read about this very issue but couldn't find it. So I dug out my mag stash and took a photo of some excerpts for you. This is from the March 2013 cover story of Car Magazine (UK), written by Georg Kacher, a very senior motoring journalist who's their European Editor.
I tried to find an online version of a Car Magazine article I read about this very issue but couldn't find it. So I dug out my mag stash and took a photo of some excerpts for you. This is from the March 2013 cover story of Car Magazine (UK), written by Georg Kacher, a very senior motoring journalist who's their European Editor.
I'm coming to the conclusion that perhaps I should go with the 981 instead of the 991 for my first foray into the Porsche world..It seems more "forgiving". I drove it on the track and I was very scared so I cannot imagine the experience on the 991 with tail swinging out..
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Just found another article... this time from Evo magazine. This is what I was talking about a few days ago.
"... You get drawn in and immersed in the process of getting the 911 to go around corners effectively. Its steering is as crisp as the Cayman’s and you can feel the nose lock onto line, which is your cue to get back on the gas. At this point in the Cayman you’re trying to feel how much rear grip there is and you’re a little wary of pushing too far because it feels a bit on edge. In contrast, the 911’s rear tyres are driven into the road as you squeeze the throttle, finding massive grip and pushing the car through the apex to the exit, nose slightly light. You know when you’ve got it just right, you can feel precisely how hard you’re pushing, and it’s the feeling of being instrumental in every part of the cornering process that makes the 911 so absorbing and intoxicating.
Is that worth the best part of £20K extra? For me it is. The Cayman is a very fast and polished car, but I don’t want to simply drive fast, I want to enjoy the drive. In a 911, the journey is the destination."
To be fair, the article comprises two polar-opposite opinions from two journos. The above is the one I agree with more, from John Barker ex-editor. The other opinion is that of Ollie Marriage, a less experienced associate editor. Full article here:
http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur...11_killer.html
"... You get drawn in and immersed in the process of getting the 911 to go around corners effectively. Its steering is as crisp as the Cayman’s and you can feel the nose lock onto line, which is your cue to get back on the gas. At this point in the Cayman you’re trying to feel how much rear grip there is and you’re a little wary of pushing too far because it feels a bit on edge. In contrast, the 911’s rear tyres are driven into the road as you squeeze the throttle, finding massive grip and pushing the car through the apex to the exit, nose slightly light. You know when you’ve got it just right, you can feel precisely how hard you’re pushing, and it’s the feeling of being instrumental in every part of the cornering process that makes the 911 so absorbing and intoxicating.
Is that worth the best part of £20K extra? For me it is. The Cayman is a very fast and polished car, but I don’t want to simply drive fast, I want to enjoy the drive. In a 911, the journey is the destination."
To be fair, the article comprises two polar-opposite opinions from two journos. The above is the one I agree with more, from John Barker ex-editor. The other opinion is that of Ollie Marriage, a less experienced associate editor. Full article here:
http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur...11_killer.html
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It is definitely confusing, especially when so much of this is about that intangible notion of feel, and there is a great deal of subjectivity involved. Your best bet is to drive both platforms back-to-back, preferably on a track, and decide for yourself.
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Well in Germany that's the way they do it there, and the automotive industry is fine with it and they find the results credible. So much so that every manufacturer of high end cars has a facility at the venue. Nurburgring is that important to them. But ultimately you'll never get what you're asking for, and they and the world seem fine with it. I suppose you want a controlled tire too, and a panel of experts to determine which options are permissible for the test to keep the playing field level?? It's not going to happen.
You need to let go, and accept their ways as they at least have an approach which gives consumers a pecking order of sorts. You should be happy in that their efforts take the spec sheet out of the equation. Otherwise you'd all be driving the latest torque-monster M3/4. But ultimately, these drivers have more laps around the ring than you do trips to the fridge. They yield outcomes that others in their industry readily accept. In fact they're paid to do this. You can argue 1 or 2 seconds based on traffic or conditions or perhaps even driver, but often the ring is closed for these sessions. What they're not going to do is spend a month there until they get every millisecond shaved off. They go there, perform their work, and set times until they believe they have achieved what the car is capable of. In the case of the 991 C2, Dag Johnsen said he might be able to break 8 minutes, implying if he kept at it for who knows how long. But that would be a deviation to their standard practice. I'm not so sure why it bothers you so much that the Cayman S is 7.5 seconds quicker around the ring than the 991 C2 based on their way of establishing times. I don't find it hard to believe considering how composed it is being a mid engine car (which based on the 918 is the current direction of Porsche's all-out effort). Just be glad Porsche didn't give the Cayman S the same 82mm throttle body. Instead of 7.5 seconds faster, the gap would be twice that. Remember the Cayman S has both a chassis and weight advantage. At least the 991 C2 beats the first generation Cayman S (by 3.5 seconds). Happy now?
BTW, in reference to your average driver rabbit hole you dragged me down, you have to be careful when you're comparing lap times as it's either a full lap or a shorter BTG lap (bridge to gantry). All official lap times are full distance. People who pay are setting BTG laps. Unless you're certain you're comparing apples to apples, it's best to not make comparisons. bccars fell into that trap.
Anyway, believe what you want. But those times will never change and will be the official times forever, and in my opinion seem very reasonable, especially considering the Cayman S and Boxster S times are so close.
The 991 C2 needs PDCC and PCCB to be more competitive, and Michelin cup tires too. That would be a fun car to drive.
You need to let go, and accept their ways as they at least have an approach which gives consumers a pecking order of sorts. You should be happy in that their efforts take the spec sheet out of the equation. Otherwise you'd all be driving the latest torque-monster M3/4. But ultimately, these drivers have more laps around the ring than you do trips to the fridge. They yield outcomes that others in their industry readily accept. In fact they're paid to do this. You can argue 1 or 2 seconds based on traffic or conditions or perhaps even driver, but often the ring is closed for these sessions. What they're not going to do is spend a month there until they get every millisecond shaved off. They go there, perform their work, and set times until they believe they have achieved what the car is capable of. In the case of the 991 C2, Dag Johnsen said he might be able to break 8 minutes, implying if he kept at it for who knows how long. But that would be a deviation to their standard practice. I'm not so sure why it bothers you so much that the Cayman S is 7.5 seconds quicker around the ring than the 991 C2 based on their way of establishing times. I don't find it hard to believe considering how composed it is being a mid engine car (which based on the 918 is the current direction of Porsche's all-out effort). Just be glad Porsche didn't give the Cayman S the same 82mm throttle body. Instead of 7.5 seconds faster, the gap would be twice that. Remember the Cayman S has both a chassis and weight advantage. At least the 991 C2 beats the first generation Cayman S (by 3.5 seconds). Happy now?
BTW, in reference to your average driver rabbit hole you dragged me down, you have to be careful when you're comparing lap times as it's either a full lap or a shorter BTG lap (bridge to gantry). All official lap times are full distance. People who pay are setting BTG laps. Unless you're certain you're comparing apples to apples, it's best to not make comparisons. bccars fell into that trap.
Anyway, believe what you want. But those times will never change and will be the official times forever, and in my opinion seem very reasonable, especially considering the Cayman S and Boxster S times are so close.
The 991 C2 needs PDCC and PCCB to be more competitive, and Michelin cup tires too. That would be a fun car to drive.
See video here:
The Car & Driver video was already posted where the fastest config Boxster S was slower than a slowest config 991 at the drag strip and on the track.
If you want to post Hockenheim short times, then also include that a time of 1:13.10 was done by a 991 7MT without SPASM (PASM only), and possibly without SC, PTV and certainly without PDK or PCCBs. Furthermore, you can post the most recent test of the Sport Auto dual between a 981 Cayman S and Boxster S where they posted times in the 1:14 second range (although track wasn't in perfect shape).
Evo recently did a test, in what I feel is the fastest config (minus unknown creature extras) 991C2 on Angelsey Race Track, which was very impressive. The options which you can add to a 991 to slightly alter its already better suspension geometry make a huge difference in actual track times. Pair it with PDK and its truly a fast car.
A 981GTS with the passive Sports Suspension is where its at in terms of the 981 chassis, although they are all really good.
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Why, because I offer valid points on a 991 sub-board? For sure I'm far more objective than you. Truth is, both the base Carrera and 981S are very similar in capability. Give the edge to the Carrera for iconic appeal and practicality, and the edge to the 981 in agility. Ultimately Porsche screwed the base Carrera with a smaller motor to widen the gap between it and the S. They did the same thing to the 981 base cars by giving it a 2.7 (987 base was a 2.9). Aside from the excellent looks of the base Carrera, why on earth would you spend that money (nearly $100K) and not go a little further on the S? It makes no sense. Especially when residual value always favors the S cars. It's equally important the car's future value as is initial cost. The only people I see driving base cars are non-enthusiasts and the elderly. They leave you wanting. The base 991 is no different.
As for Nurburgring, if you've never driven it, you shouldn't talk about it. No track on earth compares. You have to experience it to understand it. It's easy to over drive your car. Never once did I go there without seeing nice cars in crunched up piles, including Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, Vipers, GT40s, Mercs, Minis, etc. All my laps were a compromise of a heavy foot and wanting to ensure I could drive my car home at the end of the day. In the end, I still put credibility in the official posted laps as those guys are a good baseline and try to stay somewhere between a very hot lap and a safe lap. Plus, the German magazines are far more credible than anything published in the US. You have to get over the mindset that America does things as well if not better than others. It certainly isn't the case when it comes to magazines. I haven't touched a Car and Driver or Road and Track in more than a decade for good reason. There's nothing worth reading in them.
As for Nurburgring, if you've never driven it, you shouldn't talk about it. No track on earth compares. You have to experience it to understand it. It's easy to over drive your car. Never once did I go there without seeing nice cars in crunched up piles, including Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, Vipers, GT40s, Mercs, Minis, etc. All my laps were a compromise of a heavy foot and wanting to ensure I could drive my car home at the end of the day. In the end, I still put credibility in the official posted laps as those guys are a good baseline and try to stay somewhere between a very hot lap and a safe lap. Plus, the German magazines are far more credible than anything published in the US. You have to get over the mindset that America does things as well if not better than others. It certainly isn't the case when it comes to magazines. I haven't touched a Car and Driver or Road and Track in more than a decade for good reason. There's nothing worth reading in them.
Last edited by Steve997S; Aug 9, 2014 at 12:19 PM.
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You know how I know you're a troll? Because you say stuff like this:
Go away troll. Bye bye.
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I do love the car though. It's funny how many non-Porsche enthusiasts tell me I should of got those red callipers. I smile and say, yeah, only problem is they're part of a $16,000 option package called the "S".
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I'd love to disappear from this thread. When all the stupid input disappears so will I. BTW, in the Chris Harris video, you should know he's the world's biggest proponent of the 911. I like him because he's objective and offers spot on commentary. He doesn't try to influence and lead your thought. Reading articles like the one from EVO are ridiculous. They're far too verbose and try to romance the reader to create a wide gap from a completely narrow one. It's comes across like an infomercial. Same applies to that Car magazine article. Complete crap from people with no credibility and horrible writing styles.
Last edited by Steve997S; Aug 9, 2014 at 02:31 PM.